Measurements: JPLAY!

[Archimago]

Finally done - Part II. A detailed look at JPLAY with measurements...

Time to enjoy the warm weather :-)

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/06/measurements-part-ii-bit-perfect.html


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[Julf]

Post by Archimago
Finally done - Part II. A detailed look at JPLAY with measurements...

Thanks again - and again, the results are not entirely shocking (apart
from the possible bug).


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[Archimago]

Post by Julf
Thanks again - and again, the results are not entirely shocking (apart
from the possible bug).

I think the most interesting part of this is wondering under what
conditions, something like JPLAY could make a difference...

Also, I find it interesting that people would put trust in the idea that
tiny buffers, high CPU load, presumably precise timing with "real-time"
processing in Kernel Streaming would improve sound quality. In almost
all other area of computing, it's better to have the hardware negotiate
transfer protocols, and use appropriate sized buffers to exactly AVOID
all that CPU processing!

As the results show, I can't find anything good come out of this!

Intuitively, I would in fact think that all the extra processing, tiny
buffers, etc... would put you at risk of buffer under-runs,
timing/jitter issues, more CPU load adding electrical interference
especially for those with internal sound cards.

Fascinating the stories we tell ourselves and the power of "faith".


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[garym]

More great work. Thanks. Are you planning on posting a link to your
analysis over here:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=92856&st=375


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[Archimago]

Post by garym
More great work. Thanks. Are you planning on posting a link to your
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=92856&st=375

Hi garym,
I linked to that topic on HA in my post. I announced the series on
AudioAsylum, Computer Audiophile, and here as usual. Figure I'll just
let it percolate through the Internets and audiophile forums :-).

JPLAY seems to be an interesting topic with the number of hits I've seen
on the blog so far! In any case, although I'll recuse myself from the HA
discussion thread, anyone is free to discuss it on that forum/thread...


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[garym]

got it. Thanks!


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[andy_c]

Archimago, I see you've been '*_recognized_by_JRiver_*'
(http://www.jriver.com/jplay.html) :).


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[Julf]

Post by andy_c
Archimago, I see you've been '*_recognized_by_JRiver_*'
(http://www.jriver.com/jplay.html) :).

And I am sure you have seen 'JPLAY Responds: An Open Letter'
(http://www.audiostream.com/content/jplay-responds-open-letter)


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[Archimago]

Hey guys.

Interesting. I found out about these feelings between JPLAY and JRiver
on Friday perusing the AudioStream site.

Didn't know it got to the point that the word "hoax" was being tossed
around. No wonder I saw a big jump in the # of hits to the blog after
those JPLAY results were released.


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[andy_c]

It's worthwhile to understand the nature of the pro-Jplay cranks. For
instance, one major crank feels that reality does not
"'*_consort_with_his_epistemology*_'
(http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/7030.html)" LOL.
Another, who has insulted Julf, implying that he does not understand
PLLs, had to ask the diyaudio forum '*_how_to_work_an_oscilloscope_*'
(http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/151846-anybody-using-new-ess-vout-dac-es9022.html#post1927360).
Just saying.


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[Mnyb]

It is what it is "hoax" is that not a to good natured word ? People
could pull a good hoax for fun too .

What to call a product where you extract money out of people for
nothing, con , scam ,grift ,swindle, fraud ?

Or sadly , some of the crank's actually run companies and believe in
this kind stuff themself :/ I thinks this evolution has gone on for
several generations in high end hifi , entire companies are started
around misconceptions .


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[Julf]

Post by andy_c
It's worthwhile to understand the nature of the pro-Jplay cranks. For
instance, one major crank feels that reality does not
"'*_consort_with_his_epistemology*_'
(http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/7030.html)" LOL.
Another, who has insulted Julf, implying that he does not understand
PLLs, had to ask the diyaudio forum '*_how_to_work_an_oscilloscope_*'
(http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/151846-anybody-using-new-ess-vout-dac-es9022.html#post1927360).
Just saying.

Good ones! :)


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[Mnyb]

I do understand JRiver'ssstand as JPlay leaches of them with a similar
name of thier product ? probably intentional .
And by that also implying that JRiver dont work 100% without thier
product :)


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[Julf]

Post by Mnyb
I do understand JRiver'ssstand as JPlay leaches of them with a similar
name of thier product ? probably intentional .
And by that also implying that JRiver dont work 100% without thier
product :)

And there is the possibility of JPlay being snake oil...


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[SBGK]

Hear is a similar concept, but uses Foobar2000

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/visual-studio-2012-c-and-wasapi-minimalist-player-15401/

It is called MQn so hasn't nicked the name from anyone and is free so no
fraudulent claims or snake oil.

I don't expect the resident self proclaimed digital audio experts to
change their mindset, but others reading this thread may be interested.


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[Julf]

Post by SBGK
It is called MQn so hasn't nicked the name from anyone and is free so no
fraudulent claims or snake oil.

Yes, as there is no financial gain, "fraudulent" wouldn't be the right
term. The claims might still be false.

Post by SBGK
I don't expect the resident self proclaimed digital audio experts to
change their mindset, but others reading this thread may be interested.

I don't expect the resident self proclaimed golden ears to change their
mindset either, so I am sure there will be people convinced it is the
greatest thing since sliced bread, enhancing the expressiveness and
aroma of the music.


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[garym]

...aroma of the music.

Yes, I can smell it from here.


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[cliveb]

Post by SBGK
Hear is a similar concept, but uses Foobar2000
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/visual-studio-2012-c-and-wasapi-minimalist-player-15401/
It is called MQn so hasn't nicked the name from anyone and is free so no
fraudulent claims or snake oil.

So it's a "minimalist wav player" but requires a .NET runtime framework?
Seems a contradiction in terms to me.


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[Steve Baumgarten]

Post by cliveb

Post by SBGK
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/visual-studio-2012-c-and-wasapi-minimalist-player-15401/
It is called MQn so hasn't nicked the name from anyone and is free so no
fraudulent claims or snake oil.

So it's a "minimalist wav player" but requires a .NET runtime framework?
Seems a contradiction in terms to me.

Keep reading that thread, the discussion around the way it was implemented
is hilarious.

Example:

I have tried various combinations of code and compiler settings and there
are audible differences, memcpy produces quite a hard digital effect
typical of what I hear from most memory players, otherwise I would still
be using it. Agner Fog's optimised memcpy A_memcpy seems to solve that
particular issue. http://www.agner.org/optimize/asmlib-instructions.pdf

Meanwhile yes, he's using .NET. Custom memcpy to reduce the "hard digital
effect", but he's using .NET.

SBB

[Julf]

Post by Steve Baumgarten
Keep reading that thread, the discussion around the way it was
implemented
is hilarious.

Oooh... My brain is about to explode!


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