Thank you

[Quad]

Maybe I should see a doctor. I always try to be loved by everyone. :-)

I think it is time to say thank you to some of the forum members who
constantly point out scientific arguments against audiophile myths. This
saved me money and energy. Here is what I stopped doing because of you:

- Buying expensive RCA cables. While I can't say they all sound the same
to me, the price rarely correlates with my joy listening to them. Some
surprisingly cheap but solid cables subjectively often beat their highly
praised and expensive counterparts.

- Buying hi-res stuff. Some of my all-time favorite recordings are
standard 44.1/16bit. No need and no possibility to improve (eg some
re-masters by MFSL). On the other hand there are quite a few hi-res
recordings that are a rip off (eg Hotel California, Come Away With Me,
Supernatural, Rumours,...). And on top of all, some of my all-time
favorite music is recorded quite poorly anyway. And I still love it.

- I didn't and I will not hop on the DSD train. Basically for the same
reasons as above. And ironically, those labels who offer DSD are often
the ones that already care about sound quality. For these recordings the
difference is minimal if any. And for those companies who don't care
it's worthless to buy their recordings in DSD anyway.

- I gave up on JPlay. It's not worth the effort. Its most purist setting
asks you to manually drag & drop music files into their player. Then you
have to wait a couple of seconds or even minutes to let them be loaded
into memory. Finally your computer goes into hibernate mode and you can
start listening. No seeking, no browsing, no cover art, no multi-room.
This is a complete and obsolete anachronism in the age of music
streaming. It is almost the same royal PITA as vinyl, but without the
nostalgia. And it doesn't sound better to me, there is no reason why it
should.

Cheers

PS: But remember, I passed a properly designed ABX test for ***@320kbs
vs. FLAC with a recording I own physically, ripped and converted by
myself. I would be more than happy to reproduce the result for you at
any time. Sorry couldn't resist. :-)



Living Room: Squeezelite -> WDM-KS/HDMI -> NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
-> Rowen Absolute MONO -> Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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[darrenyeats]

Post by Quad
vs. FLAC with a recording I own physically, ripped and converted by
myself. I would be more than happy to reproduce the result for you at
any time. Sorry couldn't resist. :-)

Sting in the tail ... I like it!



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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[garym]

good stuff! :cool:



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Streaming - Spotify
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[pablolie]

the ability to differentiate between MP3 and FLAC is merely a function
of the recording quality - c'mon that's baiting for the oldest flame war
:) good ole 80-20 rule... only 20% of your music collection *rightfully*
deserves to be FLAC'd for sound quality. but you may FLAC it all for
convenience.

as to HD recordings of every time that magically get remastered... some
are better... some are worse. the gatekeeper there may not be the *pure*
sound quality, it may just be our preference for one of the two
recordings period. but i have several recordings where my plain ole
16bit 44kHz back-in-the-day-CD rip beats the bells-and-whistles new
24bit 192kHz re-issue i felt compelled to buy to contribute to the
artist's estate... :)

our hobby is a funny one. and if you are an audiophile you are like
Sisyphus rolling up the rock that mountain to then do it all over again.
otherwise you would have stayed with you first system, come on. :D



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.3 on VMware
Player
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- Creek Destiny Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->-
KEF LS50
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> AudioEngine5
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[Julf]

Post by Quad
vs. FLAC with a recording I own physically, ripped and converted by
myself. I would be more than happy to reproduce the result for you at
any time. Sorry couldn't resist. :-)

I am sure you are aware that some people can very easily identify even
high-bitrate MP3 from lossless. The reason is damaged hearing in certain
frequency ranges that prevents the masking that the mp3 codec is
counting on from working.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Quad]

Post by Julf
I am sure you are aware that some people can very easily identify even
high-bitrate MP3 from lossless. The reason is damaged hearing in certain
frequency ranges that prevents the masking that the mp3 codec is
counting on from working.

There is no better way to explain doublethink.



Living Room: Squeezelite -> WDM-KS/HDMI -> NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
-> Rowen Absolute MONO -> Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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[Julf]

Post by Quad
There is no better way to explain doublethink.

That a hearing defect prevents something that makes assumptions about
your hearing from working?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Quad]

Post by Julf
That a hearing defect prevents something that makes assumptions about
your hearing from working?

It is possible that my ability to discern MP3 from FLAC is because of a
hearing defect. In theory that really is a valid reason that makes
complete sense to me and when this assumption first came up I honestly
found it to be quite creative. Critical thinking is always good and you
can't take it too far. (Btw. could you please point me to the scientific
paper which intentionally included hearing impaired participants for a
data reduction test with music?)

But you can apply critical thinking in both ways. Let's take the proven
and known facts about auditory memory. According to those insights it is
not possible to remember sonic events for longer than a couple of
seconds. Fair enough, but what about emotional memory? Music has always
been and will always be about emotions (except maybe for minimal music).
What if you are able to remember a specific emotional state rather than
the sonics itself? It is proven that emotional experiences leave strong
traces in the brain. This is just hypothetically spoken, I don't want to
claim anything on that topic.

All people are removing cognitive dissonances with brain acrobatics the
same way that all humans are accessible to placebo effects. I do and you
do. Sometimes it is very hard to discern that from critical thinking.

But hey, I thanked you! Please read my initial post again.

Cheers



Living Room: Squeezelite -> WDM-KS/HDMI -> NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
-> Rowen Absolute MONO -> Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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[garym]

Regarding ABX'ng high bit rate mp3 from FLAC, I recall that report and
certainly believe you. There are many instances of this across people
*on certain killer tracks/samples* (e.g., harpsichord music). The
question I have (and I'm serious here, not trying to kick up a fuss) is
whether you've done something like this with say, 20 or so different
tracks with some diversity. That is, not "killer samples" but tracks
from different CDs, different types of music (classical, jazz, pop,
etc.). Although it is not unusual to be able to ABX *certain" mp3 from
FLAC files, it would be highly unusual to be able to consistently ABX
FLAC from mp3 across a broader sampling of music files.



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Streaming - Spotify
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[Quad]

Post by garym
Regarding ABX'ng high bit rate mp3 from FLAC, I recall that report and
certainly believe you. There are many instances of this across people
*on certain killer tracks/samples* (e.g., harpsichord music). The
question I have (and I'm serious here, not trying to kick up a fuss) is
whether you've done something like this with say, 20 or so different
tracks with some diversity. That is, not "killer samples" but tracks
from different CDs, different types of music (classical, jazz, pop,
etc.). Although it is not unusual to be able to ABX *certain" mp3 from
FLAC files, it would be highly unusual to be able to consistently ABX
FLAC from high bit rate mp3 across a broader sampling of music files.

Back then I tested multiple tracks out of three CDs with different
genres. On two of them I could discern the original from the data
reduced version. With Pop and Jazz it was possible to do so with
statistic significance, the Pop-one even on a significance level of 1
percent. Surprisingly my choice for classical music wasn't discernable.

I don't own any harpsichord solo records. What a dull instrument IMHO.
No dynamics at all by design! That's why harpsichord recordings often
sound extremely loud, you don't have to compress anything. After one or
two tracks I always have to switch. :-)

But let's leave the odd and wore down MP3/FLAC battle behind us. Don't
you think that claims like only-the-heraing-impaired-can-discern is a
perfect example of how people deal with cognitive dissonances?



Living Room: Squeezelite -> WDM-KS/HDMI -> NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
-> Rowen Absolute MONO -> Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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[garym]

Post by Quad
But let's leave the odd and wore down MP3/FLAC battle behind us. Don't
you think that claims like only-the-hearing-impaired-can-discern is a
perfect example of how people deal with cognitive dissonances?

Thanks for the explanation re your ABX tests. I don't think anyone was
saying that discerning differences is 100% correlated with hearing
impairment. That is just one known explanation for why lossy files don't
work for some people. Julf was just pointing out an alternative
hypothesis (i.e., that passing ABX tests doesn't necessarily mean the
subject has 'golden ears'). And without cognitive dissonance, a heck of
a lot of consumer products companies will be out of business (audio, TV,
clothing, autos, etc.). It drives a lot of things about human behavior.

But heck, I rip all my CDs to FLAC and I can't even ABX a 192k mp3 from
the lossless file across any number of different files. Too many loud
rock concerts in the 1960s/70s I'm sure. :cool:



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.2) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > SqueezePlay
*Spares:* VBA 4TB, SB3, Touch (3), Radio (3), CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
Ripping (FLAC) - dbpoweramp, Tagging - mp3tag, Streaming - Spotify
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[Quad]

Post by garym
Thanks for the explanation re your ABX tests. I don't think anyone was
saying that discerning differences is 100% correlated with hearing
impairment. That is just one known explanation for why lossy files don't
work for some people. Julf was just pointing out an alternative
hypothesis (i.e., that passing ABX tests doesn't necessarily mean the
subject has 'golden ears'). And without cognitive dissonance, a heck of
a lot of consumer products companies will be out of business (audio, TV,
clothing, autos, etc.). It drives a lot of things about human behavior.
But heck, I rip all my CDs to FLAC and I can't even ABX a 192k mp3 from
the lossless file across any number of different files. Too many loud

Me too, I'm ripping to FLAC for convenience like Pablo stated. For
everyday-listening, 192k is way enough to give you full audiophile joy.
The differences I could hear were not where I expected them. It took me
some training to listen to the specific artefacts. If the only way of
delivering digital music was MP3 I wouldn't bother with vinyl and the
like.

And yes, Julf's signature is quite right. To judge the real from the
false will always be hard. I hate marketing, to some degree it is a
necessary evil. Why can't humans just objectively find out for
themselves what's good and what's not?



Living Room: Squeezelite -> WDM-KS/HDMI -> NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
-> Rowen Absolute MONO -> Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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[SBGK]

Post by Quad
Maybe I should see a doctor. I always try to be loved by everyone. :-)
I think it is time to say thank you to some of the forum members who
constantly point out scientific arguments against audiophile myths. This
- Buying expensive RCA cables. While I can't say they all sound the same
to me, the price rarely correlates with my joy listening to them. Some
surprisingly cheap but solid cables subjectively often beat their highly
praised and expensive counterparts.
- Buying hi-res stuff. Some of my all-time favorite recordings are
standard 44.1/16bit. No need and no possibility to improve (eg some
re-masters by MFSL). On the other hand there are quite a few hi-res
recordings that are a rip off (eg Hotel California, Come Away With Me,
Supernatural, Rumours,...). And on top of all, some of my all-time
favorite music is recorded quite poorly anyway. And I still love it.
- I didn't and I will not hop on the DSD train. Basically for the same
reasons as above. And ironically, those labels who offer DSD are often
the ones that already care about sound quality. For these recordings the
difference is minimal if any. And for those companies who don't care
it's worthless to buy their recordings in DSD anyway.
- I gave up on JPlay. It's not worth the effort. Its most purist setting
asks you to manually drag & drop music files into their player. Then you
have to wait a couple of seconds or even minutes to let them be loaded
into memory. Finally your computer goes into hibernate mode and you can
start listening. No seeking, no browsing, no cover art, no multi-room.
This is a complete and obsolete anachronism in the age of music
streaming. It is almost the same royal PITA as vinyl, but without the
nostalgia. And it doesn't sound better to me, there is no reason why it
should.
Cheers
vs. FLAC with a recording I own physically, ripped and converted by
myself. I would be more than happy to reproduce the result for you at
any time. Sorry couldn't resist. :-)

squeezelite sounds pretty awful out of the box, have you tried jlp which
is a modified portaudio/squeezelite. HDMI into the m51 is not the best
either, better results from say a J Kenny Cuinas + coax or mf vlink 192
aes/ebu. I guess you got win 2012 via msdn otherwise how do you justify
£600 on an O/s + £100 for the optimiser. The problem with HDMI is that
it's designed for encrypted signals so there is a bit of processing
going on which can be heard in comparison to sp/dif, AES/EBU.



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
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[Quad]

Post by SBGK
squeezelite sounds pretty awful out of the box, have you tried jlp which
is a modified portaudio/squeezelite. HDMI into the m51 is not the best
either, better results from say a J Kenny Cuinas + coax or mf vlink 192
aes/ebu. I guess you got win 2012 via msdn otherwise how do you justify
£600 on an O/s + £100 for the optimiser. The problem with HDMI is that
it's designed for encrypted signals so there is a bit of processing
going on which can be heard in comparison to sp/dif, AES/EBU.

Squeezelite out of the box sounds better to me than a Touch. And for my
M51 (unquestionable at them moment from a budget point of view) a HDMI
connection is the best option (compared to the alternatives I've tried).
You can get an evaluation version of Server 2012 for free. It's valid
for 180 days and you can extend that several times. The 100 bucks for
the AudiophileOptimizer is not much. You can easily spend that in one
evening for a decent dinner and a visit to a theatre.

I will try your modified squeezelite called JLP. What did you change?



Server/Storage: Synology 412+ -> LMS 7.7.2
Living Room: Windows Server 2012 R2 (core) -> AudiophileOptimizer ->
Squeezelite -> WDM-KS/HDMI -> NAD M51 -> Rowen Absolute MONO -> Quad
22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
Controller: iPad mini -> iPeng 7
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[Quad]

Post by Quad
I will try your modified squeezelite called JLP. What did you change?

Couldn't make it to work. The modified squeezelite crashes.



Server/Storage: Synology 412+ -> LMS 7.7.2
Living Room: Windows Server 2012 R2 (core) -> AudiophileOptimizer ->
Squeezelite -> WDM-KS/HDMI -> NAD M51 -> Rowen Absolute MONO -> Quad
22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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[ralphpnj]

What I find very interesting is that the path that Quad appears to have
taken out of the land of audiophilia is very similar to the paths that
many of us have followed.

I find that once one begins to question the Golden Eared Gods of the
high end audio publications (or as I like to call them - the clowns),
for whatever reason - mine was their apparent misunderstanding of the
basics of digital audio - then many other audiophile beliefs soon fall
to the wayside.

One of the biggest mistakes I feel that is being made by the Golden
Eared Gods is that they all too often mistake measured differences for
audible differences. So for example when measured one type of connection
may have slightly more jitter than another but the jitter in either
connection cannot be heard any human. So while the two connections may
measure differently they are functionally equal. The 16 bit versus 24
bit argument is very similar in that while 24 bit provides for greater
dynamic range, that increased dynamic range means virtually nothing for
over 99.9999999% of all recorded music, in other words 16 bits has more
than enough dynamic range for the task.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Quad]

Post by ralphpnj
What I find very interesting is that the path that Quad appears to have
taken out of the land of audiophilia is very similar to the paths that
many of us have followed.
I find that once one begins to question the Golden Eared Gods of the
high end audio publications (or as I like to call them - the clowns),
for whatever reason - mine was their apparent misunderstanding of the
basics of digital audio - then many other audiophile beliefs soon fall
to the wayside.
One of the biggest mistakes I feel that is being made by the Golden
Eared Gods is that they all too often mistake measured differences for
audible differences. So for example when measured one type of connection
may have slightly more jitter than another but the jitter in either
connection cannot be heard any human. So while the two connections may
measure differently they are functionally equal. The 16 bit versus 24
bit argument is very similar in that while 24 bit provides for greater
dynamic range, that increased dynamic range means virtually nothing for
over 99.9999999% of all recorded music, in other words 16 bits has more
than enough dynamic range for the task.

You're totally right. 16 or 24 bits is not audible. That's the wrong way
of trying to improve sound quality.

On the other hand I can't help myself hearing differences between bit
perfect playback alternatives. I cannot hear differences between digital
cables but my USB input sounds clearly different from my coax or HDMI
input. One may state that the inputs have to be somehow corrupt or this
might all be because of psychological reasons. Well, it's not possible
for me to compare them in an ABX setting.

The same goes for OS tuning. For me the difference is there. And IMHO
it's a bigger issue than MP3. It's not as easy as "more details",
"bigger sound stage" and "more dynamics". The whole accoustic impression
seems to be more stable, more relaxed. It's hard to describe it without
sounding like TAS or Wine Spectator. But all sources benefit from that,
be it MP3 or FLAC. I don't know what it is? Maybe it is the placebo only
and in a couple of month I will laugh at myself. But it's still fun to
experiment.



Server/Storage: Synology 412+ -> LMS 7.7.2
Living Room: Windows Server 2012 R2 (core) -> AudiophileOptimizer ->
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22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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[darrenyeats]

I also perceive a small difference between coax and TOSLINK S/PDIF from
Touch into my Benchmark.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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[Mnyb]

Post by darrenyeats
I also perceive a small difference between coax and TOSLINK S/PDIF from
Touch into my Benchmark.

Interfaces may be very product/implementation specific it can be that
one is better .

There is no reason to rank interfaces from best to worse as the
hardware and combinations of hardware differs so much ,so I no longer
believe in generalisation on what best. With another source another
input could be preferable .
John Swenson have argued this very well . And I do believe he's
technically correct .

I may disagree with John on the point that many subtle things are
directly audible , but they should be considered if you design a product
and they matter for the complete result .

However do try to an A/B comparison if possible . Yea it's not always
convient to setup I know it's a hobby after all.
The classical way to underestimate the power of perceptionall bias is to
find things so "obviusly better" that you don't need a controlled test
;) in that moment you prove two things . You don't get this bias/placebo
thing and you do really need a controlled test.

The expected result with all reasonable good digital interfaces is that
they should sound the same . One can be technically better and that one
should be used on its technical merit . I believe that things add up in
the end so it's still worthwhile .
But it's nothing to get OCD over .
You don't need another DAC because it does not have USB or DSD .

In La la land , AES/EBU was the thing to have for a while , but it's
noting special about it ,made to fit studios and to be able to reuse XLR
conections ? Sean Adams who designed the transporter have made an
excellent post arguing that it can in many cases be worse than spdiff (
old post somewhere on the forum ).

I spend all the time I saved obsessing over quarks going the wrong way
in my cables , by listening to actual good music :)
Figuring I have far to many records only for thier good sound ( got the
T-shirt bla bla )



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Quad]

Post by Mnyb
The classical way to underestimate the power of perceptionall bias is to
find things so "obviusly better" that you don't need a controlled test
;) in that moment you prove two things . You don't get this bias/placebo
thing and you do really need a controlled test.

So true.



Server/Storage: Synology 412+ -> LMS 7.7.2
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[Mnyb]

Re mp3 the decoder and encoder actually matters and the source file !

Some olde decoders are rubbish .

Actually crappy loudness war music can provoke more artefacts ! so it
may not be obvious which track it shows on .

Encoders . On the computer you can have the very best , but in embedded
devices like phones MP3 players and squeezeboxes they are implemented
to cope with limited CPU resources and can show artefacts .

Squeezeboxes are one such products . So mp3 may sound better encoded on
the server ! I've heard that myself in a small test I did . There is an
explanation for this in bugzilla so it's not out of thin air .

I did take archimagos 320k mp vs lossles challenge and failed so I recon
that I in most cases would not be able to tell . There could be a case
where I could tell but that is not provable .

But there are so many other reason to always go lossles anyway .

However I do not subscribe to the encode on server theory for flac the
lossles formats works as expected ( transparent )



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Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
I may disagree with John on the point that many subtle things are
directly audible , but they should be considered if you design a product
and they matter for the complete result .
.....
The expected result with all reasonable good digital interfaces is that
they should sound the same . One can be technically better and that one
should be used on its technical merit . I believe that things add up in
the end so it's still worthwhile .
But it's nothing to get OCD over .
You don't need another DAC because it does not have USB or DSD .

Very well stated. While it is not obvious from my last post but I do
agree that at least in the design phase of a piece of equipment the
designer should strive to use components that measure "better" but audio
design is not quite as "pure" as many audiophiles would like to believe.
What I mean that while the final sound of given piece of audio equipment
is important to the designer so is the final cost. So in the case where
there are two components, one which measures better than the other and
costs much more but what is being measured is in either case not audible
well...... So one may end up with a piece of audio equipment that
doesn't quite measure as well (on that particular parameter) but does
not necessarily sound "worse" than what that piece of equipment would
sound like with the more expensive and better measuring component.

I always find it amusing how audiophiles tend to have a this giant
double standard with respect to measurements, e.g. tubes measure poorly
but sound wonderful whereas non-asynchronous USB has slightly more
(inaudible) jitter than asynchronous USB so non-asynchronous USB must be
bad. Go figure.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
I always find it amusing how audiophiles tend to have a this giant
double standard with respect to measurements, e.g. tubes measure poorly
but sound wonderful whereas non-asynchronous USB has slightly more
(inaudible) jitter than asynchronous USB so non-asynchronous USB must be
bad. Go figure.

Hmm what is this called confirmation-bias also called cherry picking .
This also happens in real science where researcher massage data and
cherry pick results that supports what they already want to believe ?
This can be involuntary too ! Hence the double blinding in some cases
when subtle effects are studied .

So measurements matters if they support audiophile folklore , if it
doesn't it is tossed away .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Quad]

Post by ralphpnj
I always find it amusing how audiophiles tend to have a this giant
double standard with respect to measurements, e.g. tubes measure poorly
but sound wonderful whereas non-asynchronous USB has slightly more
(inaudible) jitter than asynchronous USB so non-asynchronous USB must be
bad. Go figure.
So measurements matters if they support audiophile folklore , if it
doesn't it is tossed away .

I remember a review of an audio device in one of these advertising
magazines (forgot what it was, who made it and who reviewed it). Jitter
measurements were incredible and the producer admitted he was not
looking at that detail because he trusted his ears. Funny enough the
review was very positive. The device was around 20k or so.

You can add: Measurement matters if they support audiophile folklore, if
it doesn't or if it is expensive enough it is tossed away.



Server/Storage: Synology DS412+ -> LMS 7.7.2
Living Room: Windows Server 2012 R2 (core) -> AudiophileOptimizer ->
Squeezelite -> WDM-KS/HDMI -> NAD M51 -> Rowen Absolute MONO -> Quad
22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
Controller: iPad mini -> iPeng 7
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Quad
I remember a review of an audio device in one of these advertising
magazines (forgot what it was, who made it and who reviewed it). Jitter
measurements were incredible and the producer admitted he was not
looking at that detail because he trusted his ears. Funny enough the
review was very positive. The device was around 20k or so.
You can add: Measurement matters if they support audiophile folklore, if
it doesn't or if it is expensive enough it is tossed away.

I think the measurements versus listening tests breaks down something
like this for the Golden Eared Gods of high end audio:

1) If the equipment under review is a) very expensive, b) from a well
known high end manufacturer and c) that manufacturer advertises in the
magazine then any less than perfect measurements can be tossed away
since the equipment sounds so wonderful, like a veil has been lifted,
etc., etc., etc.

2) If the equipment under review is a) inexpensive b) from a well known
mass market manufacturer and c) that manufacturer does not advertise in
the magazine then any less than perfect measurements just prove what a
total piece of crap the equipment is and explains why the equipment does
not sound as good as a similar piece of equipment costing 100 times as
much but which also measures poorly.

Looking at 1 & 2 I would think that someone in the golden eared crowd
would realize that perhaps the wrong thing is being measured.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
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[darrenyeats]

There's probably a lot of truth to that. But sometimes you do get
something measurable for your money. The dCS Vivaldi for example (yours
for £80k), see figures 16 and 17 especially.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/dcs-vivaldi-digital-playback-system-measurements

Nothing else I've seen measures like that for harmonic and IM
distortion! Putting aside audibility for a moment, you have to admire
the engineering achievement.
Darren



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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[ralphpnj]

Post by darrenyeats
There's probably a lot of truth to that. But sometimes you do get
something measurable for your money. The dCS Vivaldi for example (yours
for £80k), see figures 16 and 17 especially.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/dcs-vivaldi-digital-playback-system-measurements
Nothing else I've seen measures like that for harmonic and IM
distortion! Putting aside audibility for a moment, you have to admire
the engineering achievement.
Darren

I do admire the engineering involved and the what has been achieved on
an oscilloscope's screen and the test bench but I would not (provided of
course that I could, which I can't) pay over $100,000 for a an SACD
player and DAC. However great the vivaldi may sound I'm fairly certain
that there is another SACD player and DAC combo costing much less with
99% (if one believes in such rankings) of the great sound.

I hope that there are some people out there willing to spend the money
on state of the art and boundary stretching equipment since the
technology used in sota equipment usually filters down to the level of
affordable equipment. Sometimes it just takes a while and other times it
just cannot be made less expensive.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Mnyb]

Post by darrenyeats
There's probably a lot of truth to that. But sometimes you do get
something measurable for your money. The dCS Vivaldi for example (yours
for £80k), see figures 16 and 17 especially.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/dcs-vivaldi-digital-playback-system-measurements
Nothing else I've seen measures like that for harmonic and IM
distortion! Putting aside audibility for a moment, you have to admire
the engineering achievement.
Darren

Thats true ,but it cant be easy for them competing with the likes of
zanden and audionote who perform worse than a cheap chinese DVD player ,
when the golden ears " testing " rank things so disparately :)

You may have noticed that extrememly well performing products are rank
and file with with very poor performers in must subjective rags .
Audiophiles draws the interesting conclusion that measurements does not
tell anything .
While they are blind to the many pitfalls and obvius problems with
subjective sigthed testing .

And no the magasinens are not the worst , se sites like 6moons etc
:confused:

I do agree that a set of measurement may not be complete and are
presented out of context and sometimes massaged and not done at the same
standard as any other manufacturer ...

But these are small quantifiable problems compared to what's going on in
the subjective testing area .
And it does not even need to be obvius fraudulent behavior ( which I
suppose it is sometimes like Ralphy sugest ).

It's in the culture they themself nurtured things have to be very
expensive and built in very expensive cases to perform and have some
fairy dust sprinkled to the design to be even considered .
Yes the Mfg cost for the box can be more than the content ,but that they
won't tell you .
And it's made even worse by the effect that the price is a part of the
product in luxury articles ! so it has to bee shamelessly hiked . Or as
some other poster said a while ago " healty disregards for cost " ! (
that poster had bought the farm literally ).
Engineering is almost an art finding the rigth solution and it does not
have to be expensive to do it .

It can be as simple as the editor of a rag or website pick the rigth
writers who spontainiusly blubbers out the gibberish needed to publish
these magazines and feed advertisers , it does not really need to be the
same expensive brands all the time . Some audiophiles seems to change
hardware just as often as teenage girls change clothes .

You can figure what this does to product quality and price the already
hiked price just got 10 times worse so that the brands can stay in
business . And product quality takes another nose dive as yet more gold
plating or pretty tubes can sell more than all the real engineering
produced by for example DcS ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

massage data and cherry pick results that supports what they already
want to believe ?

In the United States this is known as Fox News.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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