B&W 802D Speakers. Tempted.

[wyrob1]

My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker
upgrade.
My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new
amps (Murano Audio IcePower based P-500S ***@8Ω), show full
benefit of the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space.

Some internet review research led me to the B&W 802Ds and a listening
test at a local store blew me away. But at >$10,000 this is a big
step.

Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other
loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds

Many thanks

SB3 -> Benchmark DAC 1 -> Murano Audio p-500S -> Monitor Audio S10

[zanash]

an off the wall solution [and not one that your asking ] would be to
swap dac's In a recent one on one the benchmark dac1 [mk1?] faired
very poorly against a unit 1/10th its cost. It may well be worth your
while auditioning better dac's first as it just would be a waste of
money to partner this dac with speakers over $2000.

the dac tested against the dac1 was a behringer scr2496 [slightly
modded] the dac1 owner has now sold it in preference for the above
mentioned unit with a significant improvement in perceived sound.

[GuyDebord]

I believe that the most dramatic upgrade you can make are the speakers,
and no matter what equipment you have or dac you connect, they will
always be limited (or not) by the reproduction capacity of your
speakers which are the immediate and most important link between your
electronics and you.

Saying this, you have to find a dealer of "Reference 3a" speakers and
audition the Grand Veena's, they retail for around 7,000 and I believe
they are the best speakers that your money can buy, at least they are
the best I have heard including much pricier Wilson's, Goldmund's,
Revel's, B&w's, Sunus Faber's, etc. I am considering the change from my
beloved R3a Royal Master's which already were superior in the Mid-High
range than my neighbor's B&W 800N's (we were always comparing his
18,000 euro speakers with my 5,000 euro monitors and regarding
everything except bass (but then I have a REL), he always ended a bit
frustrated, but of course kept defending his manly looking BW's)

They are incredibly fast, super efficient, transparent and extremely
revealing, but most importantly their sound is truly alive.

If you trust more the "professional" reviewers, In the the recent
Absolute Sound's editor choice awards, they were one of the 4 speakers
in Harry Pearson's select list, the others retailing for 146,000;
74,000 and 12,000. HP said this about the grand veeena's:

Reference 3a Grand Veena
speakers
$7000
reference3a.com
Review to come. But let this be said for the
here and now: At about a tenth of the cost of
its nearest sonic competitor, this speaker is a
stunning achievement and perfect for the not-
too-well-heeled music lover who doesn’t live in
a cathedral-sized space.

The other very different option I would consider apart from the R3a's
are the Quad 2805's which retail for 9,000. Dont buy the BW's until you
get to listen to them, you and your wallet wont regret it.

Good luck,
--
GuyDebord

Reference 3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration,
REL Strata 5 sub. AMP: Pathos Classic One MKIII. ANALOGUE: Michell Gyro
SE, Technoarm & Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Mini Basis SQ phono preamp, link:
WireWorld Silver Eclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link:
Acoustic Zen Silver Reference2 XLR’s. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek
Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den
Hul Mainstream (Pathos) & van den Hul Mainserver (ASR).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Ben Diss]

Trust your own ears and get what sounds good to you. Your B&W dealers
should have a program that would let you audition the speakers in your
home with your equipment. I'd advise that you do this as your next
step in order to make sure your current equipment and room will sound
good with the 802D's.

I have the 803D's and love them. They want a very strong amp and the
slightest imperfection in your source will be apparent (assuming you
have a good listening environment).
--
Ben Diss

'SB3' (http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html) -> 'Lavry DA10'
(http://www.lavryengineering.com/productspage_da_10.html) -> 'BAT
VK-31SE' (http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-31SE/index.html) ->
'Halo A21' (http://www.parasound.com/halo/a21.php) -> 'B&W 803D'
(http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20803D)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[haraldo]

I have listened to the 802D some times and honestly I have not been that
impressed by them, but that's strongly my subjective opinion.

You can get Vandersteen Quattro, Thiel CS 3.7 or Dynaudio Confidence C2
at these or lower pricetags, is'n that right?
A speaker like Vienna Acoustics Mahler is also better than B&W 802d (In
my mind!)
Or if you're lucky at the second hand market, Meadowlark Audio Blue
Heron 2.

I believe all these speakers provide better value than the B&W.

Remember, the speaker that you're supposed to be living with for many
many many years is not necessarily the speaker that impresses you the
most at first listening.
My impression is that the best speakers are the ones that doesn't sound
like very much at first listen, because they are sooo clear and
neutral... Perhaps this sounds like crap but I believe it's important
to have an opportunity to "live" with the speakers for a while before
you commit, especially the pricetag considered.

All speakers at $10,000 are very impressive, but some may provide you
more musical pleasure than others.......

Regards

Harald N

[haraldo]

Trust yourself and your ears !!!

Don't trust the reviewers, because they're living of the advertising
money from the brands that's reviewed in their magazines, I don't
believe they're always being straight....

-H

[Shredder]

Definitely don't trust the reviews.

I like the B&Ws. Can't go wrong w/those.

As was pointed out, at that price, it is worth listening to a lot of
speakers. I have been very impressed w/Von Schweikert and Dali. I own
Aerial 9s, which I love and highly recommend.

Check Audiogon for great prices.

[iPhone]

Post by wyrob1
My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker
upgrade.
My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new
benefit of the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space.
Some internet review research led me to the B&W 802Ds and a listening
test at a local store blew me away. But at >$10,000 this is a big
step.
Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other
loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds
Many thanks
SB3 -> Benchmark DAC 1 -> Murano Audio p-500S -> Monitor Audio S10

With $10,000 to spend, this would be my two cents. Are the 802Ds a good
speaker? They are. Are they a great speaker for the money? In my humble
opinion, they are not. About 60 percent of the money is in the cabinet
and manufacturing process with about 30 percent going into the drivers
and cross-over (10% in other). Do you want your money's worth in sound
or a nice finished over priced cabinet (they even made a DVD to try and
justify the outrageous manufacturing of the cabinets)? The midrange on
the 802D is also a tad weak due to being to large and over done on
fancy material.

My suggestion would be to take a serious listen (they are going to be
your speakers, let your ears decide, not the reviews) to all three of
these speakers: Vandersteen Quatro, Thiel CS 3.7, and Vandersteen
Quatro Wood. The Vandersteen Wood is just over 10 grand, but if you
just have to have beautiful cabinets, it fits the bill on music and
beauty. If what one is looking for is the nearest audio to live music
for under 15 grand, that is the definition of the Quatro and CS 3.7
(again IMHO, go listen, it is worth the time).

My 10 grand solution for your system would be a pair of Quatros or CS
3.7s then take the leftover money, buy a Bel Canto e.One DAC3 and take
the better half to dinner because one will have money left over! Happy
better half, new speakers, and new DAC, WOW what a deal!

On a personal note, I can spend 25 Grand on a pair of speakers and
could only find one pair better then the Quatro. That was the Quatro’s
big brother, the Vandersteen Model 5A (the Thiel CS 3.7 was not out
yet). The reason I have the Quarto is only because the Model 5A was too
much speaker for my listening room (18Wx35Lx9H).
--
iPhone

iPhone

Last.FM http://www.lastfm.com/user/mePhone

Media Room:
Transporter, Vandersteen Quatro Signature, Ayre MX-R Mono Blocks, VTL
TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center Channel, four VSM-1
Signatures, Runco 710, RAM Oppo DV970HD, VeraStarr 6.4SE

Living Room:
Squeezebox 3, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two
VSM-1, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold

Bedroom:
Squeezebox 3, Thiel 2.3, NAD C370
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[selfdivider]

I say you audition Kef 205/2; I'd go for those before 802D in a
heartbeat.

[GuyDebord]

Post by iPhone
With $10,000 to spend, this would be my two cents. Are the 802Ds a good
speaker? They are. Are they a great speaker for the money? In my humble
opinion, they are not. About 60 percent of the money is in the cabinet
and manufacturing process with about 30 percent going into the drivers
and cross-over (10% in other). Do you want your money's worth in sound
or a nice finished over priced cabinet (they even made a DVD to try and
justify the outrageous manufacturing of the cabinets)? The midrange on
the 802D is also a tad weak due to being to large and over done on
fancy material.
(18Wx35Lx9H).

And of all of this percentages come from an already reduced budget
since they have to pay millions for their 1 and 2 page spreads, in so
many magazines around the world, showrooms, audio shows, etc.... B&W's
are a corporate speakers....
--
GuyDebord

Reference 3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration,
REL Strata 5 sub. AMP: Pathos Classic One MKIII. ANALOGUE: Michell Gyro
SE, Technoarm & Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Mini Basis SQ phono preamp, link:
WireWorld Silver Eclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link:
Acoustic Zen Silver Reference2 XLR’s. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek
Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den
Hul Mainstream (Pathos) & van den Hul Mainserver (ASR).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Phil Leigh]

I suppose you know that a lot of the CD's we enjoy are mastered/balanced
using B&W's...(not necessarily 802D's for sure, but...)
I don't personally know any (UK) mastering studios that uses other than
top-end B&W, Spendor, ATC, Linn, Naim, Harbeth, PMC etc.
--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann
JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC
V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1
system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend
Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[GuyDebord]

Post by Phil Leigh
I suppose you know that a lot of the CD's we enjoy are mastered/balanced
using B&W's...(not necessarily 802D's for sure, but...)
I don't personally know any (UK) mastering studios that uses other than
top-end B&W, Spendor, ATC, Linn, Naim, Harbeth, PMC etc.

I also suppose you have also seen their ads advertising their speakers
in a recording studio environment? Sponsorships are great in this
neoliberal times.....

The truth of the matter is that a lot of mastering is done in a lot of
parlance sources including headphones; you said it yourself, Spendor,
ATC, Linn.... and I can add AE's, Dynaudio, Tannoy and so many non
"audiophile" brands, plus double the variety in selecting passive or
active monitors. And lets not forget that normally professional
monitors cost less than many high-end audiophile monitors.

Dont get me wrong, B&W are not bad speakers, but they spend a lot of
their budget in heavy branding campaigns which the majority swallow.
Lets say they are not the best in the ratio of what you get for the
money, Almost all the time I discover how much better are smaller and
less known audio companies, this is why I prefer them.

A lot of the value you get with the likes of B&W is the value of the
BRAND, which is the same seducer that makes people grab Louis Vuitton's
instead of others...
--
GuyDebord

Reference 3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration,
REL Strata 5 sub. AMP: Pathos Classic One MKIII. ANALOGUE: Michell Gyro
SE, Technoarm & Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Mini Basis SQ phono preamp, link:
WireWorld Silver Eclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices Transporter, link:
Acoustic Zen Silver Reference2 XLR’s. POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek
Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den
Hul Mainstream (Pathos) & van den Hul Mainserver (ASR).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Andrew B.]

Post by GuyDebord
[...]
The truth of the matter is that a lot of mastering is done in a lot of
parlance sources including headphones; you said it yourself, Spendor,
ATC, Linn.... and I can add AE's, Dynaudio, Tannoy and so many non
"audiophile" brands, plus double the variety in selecting passive or
active monitors. And lets not forget that normally professional
monitors cost less than many high-end audiophile monitors.
[...]

Sorry Guy, I have to pick you up on this. Perhaps you are confusing
mixing with mastering. I have never seen or heard of anyone mastering
on headphones. Occasionally people may mix or mix-check on headphones.
But mastering is a very separate and serious discipline, carried out in
highly refined audio environments (lots of acoustic treatment, minimal
equipment and distractions, built for the task) on FULL RANGE
LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEMS.

Mastering is instructive for hifi hobbyists since it is a closer
approximation (than mixing) to what they might want to achieve with
their own systems. The first lesson from mastering should probably be
the importance of improving the listening room environment rather than
fiddling with cables and power leads! The speakers used for mastering
are often those available at the high end of consumer audio: the big
B&Ws, ATCs, PMCs, Tannoys, Eggleston (I have never heard of a mastering
studio using Linn or Naim but I concede that it is possible). Sometimes
these are actively driven and sometimes passively with expensive hi-fi
type amps made by people like Bryston, Chord and Pass Labs.

B&W 8xx series are serious speakers and 802s are used for mastering for
reasons other than simply the brand name. I agree that they may not be
the best value, particularly when combined with a suitably powerful
amp, which is why I often suggest people listen to the active ATCs as
an alternative.

Andrew

[adamslim]

Post by GuyDebord
Dont get me wrong, B&W are not bad speakers, but they spend a lot of
their budget in heavy branding campaigns which the majority swallow.
Lets say they are not the best in the ratio of what you get for the
money, Almost all the time I discover how much better are smaller and
less known audio companies, this is why I prefer them.
A lot of the value you get with the likes of B&W is the value of the
BRAND, which is the same seducer that makes people grab Louis Vuitton's
instead of others...

Like Andrew, I think you're being a bit harsh here. Sure B&W spend a
lot on brand advertising, but this is a rational business decision - it
sells speakers. Their business model is to ensure high sales so they
can spend money on R&D and get economies of scale. This is different
from my speaker manufacturer's, which is lower volume and lower
advertising, but there's nothing wrong with B&W.

Comparing them to Louis Vuitton is disingenuous - fashion brands
deliberately price high to become exclusive, and make obscene per item
profits. B&W do loads of R&D and produce a product that is at the
leading edge of the market. You may not like it, but all those studios
would not use it for mastering if it were not good enough, even if they
got it for free.

So to the OP: pay attention to all the specific recommendations, and
spend time listening, as speakers have a big influence on the character
of the sound and it's all very personal, but if you prefer the 802Ds
you'll have a great speaker. Not as good as my OBX-R2, obviously... ;)
--
adamslim

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
others

SB+, EAR V20, Living Voice OBX-R2s plus some other stuff
SB3, Charlize, Harbeth HL-P3ES
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Phil Leigh]

Post by Andrew B.
Sorry Guy, I have to pick you up on this. Perhaps you are confusing
mixing with mastering. I have never seen or heard of anyone mastering
on headphones. Occasionally people may mix or mix-check on headphones.
But mastering is a very separate and serious discipline, carried out in
highly refined audio environments (lots of acoustic treatment, minimal
equipment and distractions, built for the task) on FULL RANGE
LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEMS.
Mastering is instructive for hifi hobbyists since it is a closer
approximation (than mixing) to what they might want to achieve with
their own systems. The first lesson from mastering should probably be
the importance of improving the listening room environment rather than
fiddling with cables and power leads! The speakers used for mastering
are often those available at the high end of consumer audio: the big
B&Ws, ATCs, PMCs, Tannoys, Eggleston (I have never heard of a mastering
studio using Linn or Naim but I concede that it is possible). Sometimes
these are actively driven and sometimes passively with expensive hi-fi
type amps made by people like Bryston, Chord and Pass Labs.
B&W 8xx series are serious speakers and 802s are used for mastering for
reasons other than simply the brand name. I agree that they may not be
the best value, particularly when combined with a suitably powerful
amp, which is why I often suggest people listen to the active ATCs as
an alternative.
Andrew

Andrew - the Linn and Naim labels use their own speakers...and their CD
sound quality is generally accepted as top notch.
--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann
JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC
V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1
system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend
Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[gsawdy]

You may have already considered unbox speakers....But if you haven't,
you should definitely try to listen to the Martin-Logan Summits. I
would also suggest you try to find a local owner of the Orions.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_us.htm
You can sign up and post a request to audition on the Orion User Group
Board: http://orion.quicksytes.com/viewforum.php?f=1
I am currently building a pair of the Orion/Thors and expecting this
will be my last speaker.

Happy searching. George

[Andrew B.]

Post by Phil Leigh
Andrew - the Linn and Naim labels use their own speakers...and their CD
sound quality is generally accepted as top notch.

I was assuming that was the case - and also discounting it as a special
case (a rather biased endorsement). The reason for the high technical
quality of the Linn and Naim recordings (I own several of each, not
least since I am a former Naimee) is the recording techniques used and
the lack of "squashing" compression applied to the master buss, so that
the music still has proper dynamics. I don't think this has much to do
with their choice of mastering speakers.

Andrew

[Phil Leigh]

Post by Andrew B.
I was assuming that was the case - and also discounting it as a special
case (a rather biased endorsement). The reason for the high technical
quality of the Linn and Naim recordings (I own several of each, not
least since I am a former Naimee) is the recording techniques used and
the lack of "squashing" compression applied to the master buss, so that
the music still has proper dynamics. I don't think this has much to do
with their choice of mastering speakers.
Andrew

I'm not disagreeing - commercially, you have to eat your own
dogfood...
But my point really was that if you can create well-balanced masters
then the speakers are fundamentally "OK".
The sound on these CD's is not just to do with compression (they use
plenty, especially on vocals!) or the agreed abscence of brick-wall
limiting, but also the quality of the end-to-end recording chain.

Anyway, Linn/Naim was just an example.

Abbey Road has been all over B&W for years and no-one complains about
their masters - they are held in high esteem. I'm not a big fan of the
B&W sound by the way - except for the Nautilus which is just...wow!

I could go into a lengthy discourse about how the best speakers to
listen to any recording are the ones they were mastered on. That's what
produced the sound we were intended to hear.
Recovering more detail (for example) is fascinating but I don't want to
hear Ringo's drum stool squeak, because I'm pretty sure if George Martin
had heard it at the time he would have fixed it!

I don't want to know about "3-d soundstaging" because I can guarantee
that no-one was trying to create it in the first place oh, and it isn't
there anyway ;o), and i don't want to know about fantastic dynamics that
would have been compressed or limited out had they been heard at the
time.

It's always interesting to hear artists/engineers opinions on systems
when they listen to their own records on them. These people actually
have a valid opinion on what things should sound like. We can only say
what we prefer, not what is "more accurate".
--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann
JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC
V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1
system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend
Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[haraldo]

I reckon it's difficult to discuss such speakers without bringing the
power amplifiers into the loop. Does anybody know which amps the famous
UK studios are using?
I have read that some studios are using very expensive Chord Poweramps,
while I have also heard about Electrocompaniet Nemo.

The reasoning behind this, from me, is that I reckon it's not possible
to get the full benefit of the larger B&W without "powerhouse"
amplifiers.

When I auditioned the 802D they were driven by quite expensive / large
Classe poweramps, and they were just not able to make the speakers come
alive.

If you're auditioning speakers, perhaps you should also bring your own
amplifier, if possible. It's a significant factor in the equation....

I bought speakers 15 years ago realizing afterwards that I didn't have
the amplifiers to run them properly, that's not much fun.....

Some reviewers actually use Large Krell amps (like FPB-600cx) when
reviewing $1500 B&W speakers. No one would use such a setup in the real
world

An example: the Quattro Wood, will obviously be much easier on the amps
because it's got a powered subwoofer and a passive high-pass filter in
the signal path before the power amplifier. This makes a significant
difference.

Regards

-H

[Phil Leigh]

Post by haraldo
I reckon it's difficult to discuss such speakers without bringing the
power amplifiers into the loop. Does anybody know which amps the famous
UK studios are using?
I have read that some studios are using very expensive Chord Poweramps,
while I have also heard about Electrocompaniet Nemo.
The reasoning behind this, from me, is that I reckon it's not possible
to get the full benefit of the larger B&W without "powerhouse"
amplifiers.
When I auditioned the 802D they were driven by quite expensive / large
Classe poweramps, and they were just not able to make the speakers come
alive.
If you're auditioning speakers, perhaps you should also bring your own
amplifier, if possible. It's a significant factor in the equation....
I bought speakers 15 years ago realizing afterwards that I didn't have
the amplifiers to run them properly, that's not much fun.....
Some reviewers actually use Large Krell amps (like FPB-600cx) when
reviewing $1500 B&W speakers. No one would use such a setup in the real
world
An example: the Quattro Wood, will obviously be much easier on the amps
because it's got a powered subwoofer and a passive high-pass filter in
the signal path before the power amplifier. This makes a significant
difference.
Regards
-H

Harald I agree - big B&W's need lots...LOTS of power to drive them
properly. Abbey Road uses Classe amps (nice!).
--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann
JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC
V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1
system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend
Supertweeters, Kimber & Chord cables
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Andrew B.]

Post by haraldo
I reckon it's difficult to discuss such speakers without bringing the
power amplifiers into the loop. Does anybody know which amps the famous
UK studios are using?
I have read that some studios are using very expensive Chord Poweramps,
while I have also heard about Electrocompaniet Nemo.
The reasoning behind this, from me, is that I reckon it's not possible
to get the full benefit of the larger B&W without "powerhouse"
amplifiers.
When I auditioned the 802D they were driven by quite expensive / large
Classe poweramps, and they were just not able to make the speakers come
alive.
If you're auditioning speakers, perhaps you should also bring your own
amplifier, if possible. It's a significant factor in the equation....
I bought speakers 15 years ago realizing afterwards that I didn't have
the amplifiers to run them properly, that's not much fun.....
Some reviewers actually use Large Krell amps (like FPB-600cx) when
reviewing $1500 B&W speakers. No one would use such a setup in the real
world
An example: the Quattro Wood, will obviously be much easier on the amps
because it's got a powered subwoofer and a passive high-pass filter in
the signal path before the power amplifier. This makes a significant
difference.
Regards
-H

Chord and Bryston are popular amps in the mastering world. Not cheap.
But having active speakers like the ATCs solves this drive problem and
eliminates a source of distortion (the passive crossover).

Andrew

[haraldo]

Post by Andrew B.
Chord and Bryston are popular amps in the mastering world. Not cheap.
But having active speakers like the ATCs solves this drive problem and
eliminates a source of distortion (the passive crossover).
Andrew

My opinion: Another benefit of active speakers are improved dynamics,
there are no passive components between the amp and the speaker and
that also clearly improve the dynamics... Improvement dependent on the
complexity of the filter, ref the extremely complex filters in some B&W
models, that "steal" power and dynamics....

-Harald N

[selfdivider]

Get yourself Musical Fidelity Superchargers. They'll drive anything to
hell & back, and if you wish to keep the sonic signature of your amp
(even if it's a low-wattage SET) you can do that, too. Can't lose.

[haraldo]

I have never understood the reasoning the Superchargers, they are
essentially just another set of Power amplifier that you add after your
power amplifier
Why have double set of Power Amplifiers instead of just one that does
it all.... I don't believe that just throwing power at your rig solves
all issues.

To me it sounds strange to add another poweramp instead of just
upgrading....

Regards

-Harald N

[GuyDebord]

Post by haraldo
I have never understood the reasoning the Superchargers, they are
essentially just another set of Power amplifier that you add after your
power amplifier
Why have double set of Power Amplifiers instead of just one that does
it all.... I don't believe that just throwing power at your rig solves
all issues.
To me it sounds strange to add another poweramp instead of just
upgrading....

I completely second that. More cables and more connections are a no no
for me. Plus I dont believe at all in Musical Fidelity's power=better
marketing stunt. However, still many speaker manufacturers continue to
design very inefficient speakers, and that means business for MF and
other megawatt builders (krell, bryston, etc). Its not a question of
superpower amps, but a question of super inefficient speakers.
--
GuyDebord

Reference3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration,
REL Strata 5 sub. AMPS: Pathos Classic One MKIII's in mono config.
ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient, Satisfy Carbon & Lyra Helikon SL, ASR
MiniBasis SQ preamp, link: WireWorld SilverEclipse 5.2. DIGITAL:
SlimDevices Transporter, link: AcousticZen Silver Reference2 XLR’s.
POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech
SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) & van den Hul
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[haraldo]

Post by GuyDebord
I completely second that. More cables and more connections are a no no
for me. Plus I dont believe at all in Musical Fidelity's power=better
marketing stunt. However, still many speaker manufacturers continue to
design very inefficient speakers, and that means business for MF and
other megawatt builders (krell, bryston, etc). Its not a question of
superpower amps, but a question of super inefficient speakers.

Couldn't agree more :-D
Musical Fidelity is creating a need that isn't there in the first
place

-Harald :-D

[darrenyeats]

Personally I'm in the camp that likes to listen at louder or more
"realistic" volume levels.

However, the maximum loudness of a system can work against its
performance at low listening levels.

You are limited by the dynamic range of all the equipment in the chain,
and even the best equipment has a finite range. For example, I believe
this factor more often that not benefits valve amps in level-matched
comparisons against SS amps.
Darren

[GuyDebord]

Post by darrenyeats
Personally I'm in the camp that likes to listen at louder or more
"realistic" volume levels.
However, the maximum loudness of a system can work against its
performance at low listening levels.
You are limited by the dynamic range of all the equipment in the chain,
and even the best equipment has a finite range. For example, I believe
this factor more often that not benefits valve amps in level-matched
comparisons against SS amps.
Darren

Are you saying that tube amps have less dynamic range than Solid
State??? I think I have to be misinterpreting something, would you
elaborate
--
GuyDebord

Reference3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration,
REL Strata 5 sub. AMPS: Pathos Classic One MKIII's in mono config.
ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient, Satisfy Carbon & Lyra Helikon SL, ASR
MiniBasis SQ preamp, link: WireWorld SilverEclipse 5.2. DIGITAL:
SlimDevices Transporter, link: AcousticZen Silver Reference2 XLR’s.
POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech
SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) & van den Hul
Mainserver (ASR).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[darrenyeats]

the only reason you would need 500w to get decent levels lies in the
inefficiency of the speakers used.

Fair enough, but I'm talking about comparisons between amps and you
keep the same speakers for such comparisons.

[opaqueice]

Post by GuyDebord
Are you saying that tube amps have less dynamic range than Solid
State??? I think I have to be misinterpreting something, would you
elaborate...

I'm confused. By dynamic range of an amp I assume you just mean
maximum power before clipping (maybe divided by noise floor), and
almost all solid state amps are capable of supplying more power than
almost all tube amps (and with lower noise).

So yes, tube amps in general have considerably less dynamic range than
SS. Is that controversial?

[GuyDebord]

I'm confused. By dynamic range of an amp I assume you just mean maximum
power before clipping (maybe divided by noise floor), and almost all
solid state amps are capable of supplying more power than almost all
tube amps (and with lower noise).
So yes, tube amps in general have considerably less dynamic range than
SS. Is that controversial?

By dynamic range I meant the DIFFERENCE between the highest signal the
amplifier can output to the amplifiers output noise. And this
difference (ratio) is usually given in db's and certainly not in power
units as your comment: "maximum power before clipping" might suggest .
DR is more dependent on power regulation circuits whose output DR might
read as compressed and yes, tube amps in SOME cases have simpler pr
circuits.

There is nothing controversial about that declaration, what is
problematic is that it seems to take this ratio as the only thing
important to achieve realistic audio levels. DR alone doesnt say much
and using DR to disqualify tubes is very very simplistic.
--
GuyDebord

Reference3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration,
REL Strata 5 sub. AMPS: Pathos Classic One MKIII's in mono config.
ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient, Satisfy Carbon & Lyra Helikon SL, ASR
MiniBasis SQ preamp, link: WireWorld SilverEclipse 5.2. DIGITAL:
SlimDevices Transporter, link: AcousticZen Silver Reference2 XLR’s.
POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech
SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) & van den Hul
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[opaqueice]

Post by GuyDebord
By dynamic range I meant the DIFFERENCE between the highest signal the
amplifier can output to the amplifiers output noise. And this
difference (ratio)

Difference and ratio are not the same thing. You mean ratio.

Post by GuyDebord
is usually given in db's and certainly not in other power units as your
comment: "maximum power before clipping" might suggest .

Not at all. The maximum power divided by the power in the noise floor
doesn't have units, and is conventionally expressed in dB.

Post by GuyDebord
DR is more dependent on power regulation circuits whose output DR might
read as compressed and yes, tube amps in SOME cases have simpler pr
circuits.
There is nothing controversial about that declaration, what is
problematic is that it seems to take this ratio as the only thing
important to achieve realistic audio levels. DR alone doesnt say much
and using DR to disqualify tubes is very very simplistic. Besides its
an old argument that doesnt say much today.

Fine - you agree that tube amps almost always have lower DR, right? I
wasn't drawing any conclusions from that; I was just confused by your
earlier comment.

[pski]

Post by haraldo
I reckon it's difficult to discuss such speakers without bringing the
power amplifiers into the loop. Does anybody know which amps the famous
UK studios are using?
I have read that some studios are using very expensive Chord Poweramps,
while I have also heard about Electrocompaniet Nemo.
The reasoning behind this, from me, is that I reckon it's not possible
to get the full benefit of the larger B&W without "powerhouse"
amplifiers.
When I auditioned the 802D they were driven by quite expensive / large
Classe poweramps, and they were just not able to make the speakers come
alive.
If you're auditioning speakers, perhaps you should also bring your own
amplifier, if possible. It's a significant factor in the equation....
I bought speakers 15 years ago realizing afterwards that I didn't have
the amplifiers to run them properly, that's not much fun.....
Some reviewers actually use Large Krell amps (like FPB-600cx) when
reviewing $1500 B&W speakers. No one would use such a setup in the real
world
An example: the Quattro Wood, will obviously be much easier on the amps
because it's got a powered subwoofer and a passive high-pass filter in
the signal path before the power amplifier. This makes a significant
difference.
Regards
-H

Couldn't have said it better myself. Some time ago I bought my
Reference 9's and promptly learned a good deal about how good
amplifiers compare favorably with welders.

I've heard fine examples of B & W's and sadly I've had friends that
were unduly proud. The amp was the issue.

I would highlight earlier references to Dynaudio. As amp requirements
go, they are a handful but with adequate amps (not watts,) they are
stunningly broad and accurate.

P

[rydenfan]

If you truly want to discuss a monitor that is used in many mixing and
mastering studios then you need to discuss the Lipinski montiors. Take
a look at this client list...

http://www.lipinskisound.com/customer.aspx

http://www.lipinskisound.com/wstl.aspx

[haraldo]

Post by rydenfan
If you truly want to discuss a monitor that is used in many mixing and
mastering studios then you need to discuss the Lipinski montiors. Take
a look at this client list...
http://www.lipinskisound.com/customer.aspx
http://www.lipinskisound.com/wstl.aspx

Rydenfan, this looks like fantastic speakers!!

If you ever heard genuine phase coherent speakers in a proper setup,
you'll never forget about it.... This actually looks like the real
stuff.

I believe that I would much rather but something like this with fast
subwoofers than B&W 802D (which in my opinion is slow), and you may
even have some money left for a gift to your wife :-))

Cheers

Harald N

[rydenfan]

They are most certainly the real deal! With the big L-707 you have the
ability to order them with a 600 watt monoblock built into the stand! I
have heard a 5 channel system of them and it remains one of the most
moving musical experiences of my life. I still believe I should have
ordered the littler L-505 instead of my current speakers, but such is
life. You should really hear them if you get a chance.

[MrJB]

Everyone has there own favorite speaker (s). My favorite right now is
the Dynaudio S3.4. The most natural sound I have ever heard. You just
have to find yours.

http://www.dynaudiousa.com/products/contour/s34/s34.htm

[MrJB]

Presently using SB3/DAC1/Arcam/Dynaudio speakers. Dynaudios are very
natural sounding. Listen to some Dyn's, the bigger the better, you
might be surprised. Have fun.

[haraldo]

I still believe I should have ordered the littler L-505 instead of my
current speakers, but such is life. You should really hear them if you
get a chance.

I wouldn't be surprised if the smaller L-505 would be even better than
the larger ones for two reasons:
- Vifa and Scan-speak ring-radiator are incredibly fast and if they are
paired with midranges that's not likewise very fast you may have issues
in the crossover region, this means those tweeters often work better
with smaller drivers
- I believe smaller drivers are generally better and faster and
provides more detail, but then you may have to match with very
competent and likewise fast stereo subwoofers....

Re Dynaudio.....
I have never heard a Dynaudio speaker that's not well sounding, like
the Contour S3.4, incredibly fine sounding speakers, almost bought a
pair of those....

Regards

Harald N

[bigfool1956]

I met a guy called Dieter Ennemoser when I was covering the Vienna hifi
show in 1999. An Austrian violin-maker by trade, he had produced a
philosophy and associated laquer (C37) which he was using to treat
existing components, and to create his own.

Anyway he dragged me off to listen to his HUGE Archaeopteryx speakers,
which at the time were selling for about 20,000 quid. They has and 18"
C37 laquered bass unit that crossed over to the tweeter at 3k.

Contrary to expectation, these speakers were the best thing I heard in
the whole show. By no means what you would call a conventional
presentation - but boy did they make fun music.

My point being that big drivers can also work.

Then again I have no idea how the speakers would stand up to extended
listening. He still makes them though!

http://www.ennemoser.com/

[haraldo]

Post by bigfool1956
Contrary to expectation, these speakers were the best thing I heard in
the whole show. By no means what you would call a conventional
presentation - but boy did they make fun music.
My point being that big drivers can also work.

Thanks!!!! - You really got me there :-)) Guess there are NO rules
without exceptions

[MrJB]

I play in stereo through a pair of the S3.4s with a REL sub. For 5.1, I
add in a SC center (which is really nice), and 2x Audience 42Ws (not as
nice, but great for mounting on the wall with their special bracket,
and fine for now as Rear Left and Right). One sits up and takes notice
of a good movie soundtrack on this system! I also have a pair of Dyn
Focus 110s for a smaller room. To be honest, I don't think I'll ever
bother looking at another speaker line, Dynaudios and their
extraordinary tweeters are just right for my ears.

[haraldo]

Post by rydenfan
If you truly want to discuss a monitor that is used in many mixing and
mastering studios then you need to discuss the Lipinski montiors. Take
a look at this client list...

I sent an email to Lipinski, and the guy (Lipinski himself) called me a
few hours later and wondered what he could do to help, and if I needed
assistance in acoustics, room, issues or anything else

I have never experienced something like this, these guys seem like
genuine professionals :-))

Post by rydenfan
I play in stereo through a pair of the S3.4s with a REL sub.

The S 3.4 are fantastic, I really love'em.....
And with great REL sub(s) I reckon you would never have to look
back.... just enjoy....

-H

[darrenyeats]

My old PMCs have Dynaudio drivers (plus I believe the same tweeters as
some Sonus Fabers at the time). Not perfect, but tough and occasionally
they can sound fairly awesome.

Best sound I've heard is Linkwitz Orion tho'...drivers (SEAS), config
(open baffle dipole) and amplification (active) all good...in
combination, knockout.
Darren

[rydenfan]

Post by haraldo
I sent an email to Lipinski, and the guy (Lipinski himself) called me a
few hours later and wondered what he could do to help, and if I needed
assistance in acoustics, room, issues or anything else
I have never experienced something like this, these guys seem like
genuine professionals :-))
-H

I believe the entire company is Andrew Lipinski (Engineer and designer)
and now his son. I am thrilled that I have turned somebody on to them. I
really hope you will keep me updated with how things progress.

[haraldo]

I am thrilled that I have turned somebody on to them. I really hope you
will keep me updated with how things progress.

You bet..... :-))

My wife's not going to like this, I have two sets of very well
performing speakers (Duntech PCL-15 + Meadowlark Kestrel2), and I'm not
going to sell them!
The Duntech PCL-15 is amongst the best imaging speakers in the world...
at any price, but they are bears to drive, there's no bass, and they're
amongst most inefficient speakers in the world, and they're just plain
ugly to look at, and..... They sound like magic......
Still, The Lipinski L-505 seems like something I really have to check
out.

In the world of insanely overpriced speakers and equipment, this seem
to me like something that provides real genuine value.

Cheers

Harald N

[rydenfan]

Haraldo, any updates on the Lipinski's?

[haraldo]

Post by rydenfan
Haraldo, any updates on the Lipinski's?

Hey, Thanks for asking :-D

Yeah, I've been in touch with the guys some more, but I'm moving slowly
right now, I don't think I'll buy another pair of speakers right now. I
already own two very well performing sets that I just can't sell....

I'll just have to wait a bit with that, won't rule out that I'll buy a
pair L-505 though....

I'm thinking DSP and room correction first, and then subwoofers, and I
don't think the Lipinski sub's are right for me because I want smaller
drivers than the 15" that's provided for in the lipinski sub.

regards

Harald N

[NoFlyZone]

Not much to add here as this is such a subjective question. I'll be
asking the same as my current setup is laughable. NuForce 9's SE V2
running into Def Tech BP2000's using my Modded SB3. OK laugh.

Still, it sounds great and from the great number of auditions I've been
through trying to sort out the speakers with the associated electronics
- and for ~$10K, Vandersteen would probably top the list. I really
liked the pair of Wilson Sophia's for pulling the disappearing act..

For myself, I'm might build a pair of Line Arrays from either
GR-Reasearch or Selah audio for 1/4 the price!

[Andrew B.]

I'm not disagreeing - commercially, you have to eat your own dogfood...
But my point really was that if you can create well-balanced masters
then the speakers are fundamentally "OK".
The sound on these CD's is not just to do with compression (they use
plenty, especially on vocals!) or the agreed abscence of brick-wall
limiting, but also the quality of the end-to-end recording chain.
Anyway, Linn/Naim was just an example.
Abbey Road has been all over B&W for years and no-one complains about
their masters - they are held in high esteem. I'm not a big fan of the
B&W sound by the way - except for the Nautilus which is just...wow!
[...]

A good mix makes mastering much easier. Re. Linn/Naim, I was talking
about master buss compression rather than track compression. I think
you will find that one thing that distinguishes the Linn/Naim approach
is the relatively small amount of compression across the main stereo
buss either in mixing or mastering.

Abbey Road is more famous for recording and mixing than for mastering,
I would say. I realise that they also have mastering and surround
mastering facilities, and that they mainly use B&W Nautilus 801 and 802
(although they have Questeds as well). They wouldn't use bad speakers,
even if they got them for nothing. B&W are good speakers but I think
the active ATCs are possibly better and certainly more convenient in a
domestic context (no need to house some mega amps in the system to cope
with the hard load).

Andrew

[GuyDebord]

Post by Andrew B.
Sorry Guy, I have to pick you up on this. Perhaps you are confusing
mixing with mastering. I have never seen or heard of anyone mastering
on headphones. Occasionally people may mix or mix-check on headphones.
But mastering is a very separate and serious discipline, carried out in
highly refined audio environments (lots of acoustic treatment, minimal
equipment and distractions, built for the task) on FULL RANGE
LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEMS.
Andrew

You are right Andrew, headphones separate stereo very differently than
monitors and in a mastering session what you want to trust among other
characteristics is the sound separation in space, but headphones are
still used to catch errors in timing/notes and tweak noise levels; even
if its occasionally they become part of the process, I never mentioned
they were the primary tools for this task.

Im sorry if I offended any B&W owner, and I repeat that I dot believe
theyre bad or that they dont do R&D but we all know they also do a lot
of PR and Marketing, and I believe that when an audio company spends so
much in that, a big portion of the value of your purchase object is just
that and people feel good owning that. Bose and B&O are other great
examples of those type of companies and Im sure we are more opinionated
on this brands since they dont target the ultra small niche of the hifi
world, we dont see their ads in the audiophile magazines therefore we
believe they dont belong there. Image building and product targeting go
a very long way in the psyche of buyers, and by common sense I cannot
trust so much in the performance value of what this corporate companies
offer.

Check out this link of an easy article I read a few weeks ago, its not
directly related to audio but im sure you can find many coincidences
with the practice of our hobby. Let me know what you think...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7187577.stm
--
GuyDebord

Reference3A Royal Master monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration,
REL Strata 5 sub. AMPS: Pathos Classic One MKIII's in mono config.
ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient, Satisfy Carbon & Lyra Helikon SL, ASR
MiniBasis SQ preamp, link: WireWorld SilverEclipse 5.2. DIGITAL:
SlimDevices Transporter, link: AcousticZen Silver Reference2 XLR’s.
POWER: Isotek MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech
SPX30 MKII (Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos) & van den Hul
Mainserver (ASR).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[opaqueice]

Post by wyrob1
Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other
loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds

There are many, many options at that price point. Personally I like
B&Ws (and owned a lower-grade model in the past), but I agree that the
best advice is to audition as many as possible. I spent about a year
and a half searching (on and off, obviously!) for my next set of
speakers. I burned a CD of very well-recorded tracks I know well and
brought it with me each time I auditioned a new pair, and I highly
recommend that. I went to several high-end shows, and quite a few
dealer showrooms and personal listening rooms.

In the end, the two speakers I was most impressed by (regardless of
price) were a pair of $50,000 MBLs and the Linkwitz Orions. I now own
the Orions, which incidentally can be had for less than the B&Ws, even
including the active crossover, custom woodwork, and a suitable
amplifier. (And by the way I'm running a Benchmark DAC1 into them, and
it sounds great.)

[empty99]

Post by wyrob1
My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker
upgrade.
My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new
the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space.
Some internet review research led me to the B&W 802Ds and a listening
test at a local store blew me away. But at >$10,000 this is a big
step.
Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other
loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds
Many thanks
SB3 -> Benchmark DAC 1 -> Murano Audio p-500S -> Monitor Audio S10

so many flavors and arguments!
I remembered John Bowers as a little gentleman w, huge ears standing
next to the odd looking original 801, this was in 1980, when every
other speakers were rectangular boxes. He talked about edge
diffractions, cone breakup, cabinet vibrations AND laser
interferometry, strange stuffs indeed, a good 15 years ahead of
industry. I couldn't afford the 801, no sir, but the $250/pr DM110
sounded better than my ESS AMT ($1200) squackboxes. Then came the 802FS
as my next system for 17yrs (drove from Oregon to Vancouver BC and back
for a demo unit that i could afford), and the N802 since 2002 (another
trip to Bellevue and back to save some pesos). To sum it up, i
appreciate the improvement in quality more than someone who just jump
into a B&W from another brand, because for very little money, the
bottom rungs B&Ws already give you excellent sounds. I still have all
of them but due to its size i gave the 802FS to my daughter because she
has a huge listening room.
SB3>MF A3.24>2NAK PA7>N802>NICE!

[haraldo]

Post by wyrob1
My SB3 setup is giving me plenty of enjoyment, but time for a speaker
upgrade.
My current Monitor Audio S10s are OK but cannot keep up with my new
benefit of the DAC1 clarity, nor fill our large listening space.
Some internet review research led me to the B&W 802Ds and a listening
test at a local store blew me away. But at >$10,000 this is a big
step.
Wondering if anyone had experience with these speakers and/or any other
loudspeakers that could offer similar quality / range to the 802Ds
Many thanks
SB3 -> Benchmark DAC 1 -> Murano Audio p-500S -> Monitor Audio S10

So, you made any decisions on where you're going?
It would be interesting to hear where you're landing....

Regards

Harald N