Discussion:
Digital amps like the C390Dd, the end of seperate amps and dacs?
Dura
2013-08-26 21:14:19 UTC
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I don't think I will ever buy a dac again.Or an amp.
2 months ago I replaced my Primare a30.1 integrated amp and Rega DAC
(together with the van den Hul the first ultimate cables close to
€3500,- , the amp was 10 years old though) with the Dac/amp NAD
C390DD (€2500.- over here) and the favorable change really
restored my faith that revolutionary price/quality improvements in audio
are possible after all.
The original set was a well-balanced carefully put together set at its
price point to my ears (i tried a few amps and a handful of dacs) but
the NAD seems to improve every aspect; treble is much more extended and
purer, no more fine grain on the top and the slightly rolled off treble
the Rega added, tight deep bass, my dynaudio audience 122 speakers seems
to have grown, a wider and deeper soundstage with a very natural big big
background and lots a detail, it sounds clearer, without sounding shrill
or analytical or mechanical in the slightest. Some reviews describe it
as warm and organical and I can hear what they mean, but neutral is seen
most often. If I have to name a weak point I would say dynamics, seems
slightly less then the Primare.
But on the whole the improvement was deeply impressive (after 3 days of
warming up, out of the box it sounded horribly spikey) and looking at
pictures of its inside, I'm sure dac/amps like thise can and will become
chesper, much cheaper in the feature (NAD already has cheaper products
with this kind of amplication coming out, like something called
3020(!)).
These digital amps, not to be confused with class D, will probably
replace class AB amps I think, en passant killing the need for a
seperate amps.
I suppose a nieche markt for class A amps especially with tubes will
survive, after all it did so the last 5 decennia.

But I wouldn't be surprised if all mainstream amps 10 years from now
will be digital.


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foxx
2013-08-27 21:07:45 UTC
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Dura,
you are expressing what I and many other would consider a sensible
approach. What we are seeing in realiy is quite a different picture
though. The market for separate DACs is unbroken. And so called
'audiophiles' are jumping on every donkey's back that comes along. It is
a simple fact that the audio industry has no interest whatsoever in
integrated solutions. Separat components yield a far high margin. Yes,
they do offer all-in-one gear, but always with a compromise involved; be
it the power output of the amp section (most common), usability of
in-built streamers or quality of the DAC (i.e. my MF M6i).
Not for the life if me would I ever buy a dedicated DAC. I want as
little boxes as possible. I expect every source component to have a
decent DAC on board. But having a very good DAC and only this ONE
integrated in the amp would surely save a lot of resources (any money).
So I absolutely see your point.


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pablolie
2013-08-31 22:58:00 UTC
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Even though my current main setup is a pretty classic configuration
kinda stuck in a 10 year old audio(phile) paradigm, it still sounds
sweet. And yet, when I think about the next step, I would definitely go
for a standalone DA I think. I believe in a component serving ONE
purpose, more or less. With the possible exception that maybe
integration of amplifying and speaker components (ie active speaker)
eliminates matching guesswork.

Personal story follows: my current setup is great for my current
listening "shrine", a large room with cathedral ceilings. But I am
selling the house (and getting divorced) and no way this will do as
we'll in a downsized environment. There, I am a form believer in the
resolution of two way bookshelf speakers. I am debating whether to get
the Dynaudio Focus active or the KEF LS50 with a matching compact IA.
But I think I am sure about getting a separate DA like the newest
Benchmark. I need the audio and entertainment digital inputs to go
through the same front end.

And the SB feeds into it as today... Via optical Toslink, uncoupled
electrically.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.2 on VMware
Player
Sources: SB3 (3), SB Boom (3), Touch (1), Duet (1), Radio (1), Accuphase
DP65v CD (used as DAC for SB3 mostly)
Amplifiers: Accuphase E306v - Creek OBH21/22
Loudspeakers: Ceeroy 3-way tower (tuned) - Audioengine 5/S8 - Acoustic
Energy Aego M
Headphones: Grado SR-1
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Daverz
2013-09-04 05:42:38 UTC
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I really like the idea of getting rid of the pre-amp and DAC, but there
are a couple issues for me:

* My Vandersteen Quatros require a 6 dB/octave high-pass filter between
the pre-amp and amp. I can do the filter with sox, but I'd prefer to
send a bit-perfect signal to the digital amp.
* I like to spin the occasional record (so a high quality A/D converter
is required.)


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Mnyb
2013-09-04 06:33:18 UTC
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The logical endpiont is digital active speakers (actually has been since
the early 90's but audiophiles are to darned conservative ) .

:) but sadly still to few brands and price classes to make viable
options for everyone :/



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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foxx
2013-09-05 20:34:53 UTC
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Yes and no. We would at least need som sort of digital switch in order
to rout the various incoming signals to the active speakers. Otherwise
we'd be left with tons on cables running into the speaker, which would
ba definitive killer for me.


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Mnyb
2013-09-05 20:43:43 UTC
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Post by foxx
Yes and no. We would at least need som sort of digital switch in order
to rout the various incoming signals to the active speakers. Otherwise
we'd be left with tons on cables running into the speaker, which would
ba definitive killer for me.
There are solutions for that , Meridian make their " home theater
processors / digital preamps " who does this , and Phillips while they
dabbled in digital speakers in the 90's sold them with a control unit ie
in other words a digital preamp .

What's really missing is a standard interface to digital active speakers
besides USB but ,it would be hard to implement home theater to 7.1 USb
speakers ?

DIY is also an option , some of the typical digital xover and eq units
has multiple digital inputs ?

There may also be a need for AD conversion for legacy sources like vinyl
, VHS and cassete .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Mnyb
2013-09-05 20:47:13 UTC
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Post by foxx
Yes and no. We would at least need som sort of digital switch in order
to rout the various incoming signals to the active speakers. Otherwise
we'd be left with tons on cables running into the speaker, which would
ba definitive killer for me.
There are solutions for that , Meridian make their " home theater
processors / digital preamps " who does this , and Phillips while they
dabbled in digital speakers in the 90's sold them with a control unit ie
in other words a digital preamp .

What's really missing is a standard interface to digital active speakers
besides USB but ,it would be hard to implement home theater to 7.1 USb
speakers ?

DIY is also an option , some of the typical digital xover and eq units
has multiple digital inputs ?

There may also be a need for AD conversion for legacy sources like vinyl
, VHS and cassete .

Edit:

My own meridian hifi is an example I have multiple digital sources hdmi
spdiff and toslink conected to my processor/preamp who in turn has a
proprietary digital interface to my speakers .

If it was a standard an interface like this does not have to be one
brand only :/



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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Dura
2013-09-07 23:02:03 UTC
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That was fast, 'this'
(http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-power-amplifiers/integrated-amplifiers/nuforce-dda-100-integrated-amplifier-review-2.html)
might be one of those very affordable amps I thought in the first post
are inevitable offering sq for a very decent price. It wouldn't surprise
me if within a few years these 500 buck dac/aps would run circles around
my big 4-5x more expensive c390dd. V


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Wombat
2013-09-08 02:39:41 UTC
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Now that is something simple and complete that will be selling well i
bet. 500GB Hi-Res Music Player System, 2x40W HAPS1/B
http://www.sony.co.uk/product/home-cinema-receivers/hap-s1/technical-specifications#tab



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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