[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Digital Music Systems - track limits!?

[Archimago]

Was curious about some of the new music servers and did some reading in
the event that my Squeezebox system goes kaput one day...

Looks like the 'Sonos has a 65000 track limit'
(https://ask.sonos.com/sonos/topics/future_of_the_65k_limit).

BlueSound has a '~80000 track limit'
(https://support.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/articles/201253417-How-many-tracks-can-my-Bluesound-Player-index-on-the-network-).

Hmmm, looks like I'm "over the limit" with my music collection already
if I were to own one of these systems if I include all the vinyl rips
and SACD rips over the years! I must admit I was surprised by these
limits. I'm sure there must be many of you (us) out there with larger
libraries than these numbers.

A bit surprised and a bit disappointed by these limits. I'm impressed
again at the power and flexibility of the Squeezebox/LMS system! Also
strange how reviewers don't mention this since I imagine it's -one of
the most important specifications- that should really be made clear to
purchasers.



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[garym]

Post by Archimago
Was curious about some of the new music servers and did some reading in
the event that my Squeezebox system goes kaput one day...
Looks like the 'Sonos has a 65000 track limit'
(https://ask.sonos.com/sonos/topics/future_of_the_65k_limit).
BlueSound has a '~80000 track limit'
(https://support.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/articles/201253417-How-many-tracks-can-my-Bluesound-Player-index-on-the-network-).
Hmmm, looks like I'm "over the limit" with my music collection already
if I were to own one of these systems if I include all the vinyl rips
and SACD rips over the years! I must admit I was surprised by these
limits. I'm sure there must be many of you (us) out there with larger
libraries than these numbers.
A bit surprised and a bit disappointed by these limits. I'm impressed
again at the power and flexibility of the Squeezebox/LMS system! Also
strange how reviewers don't mention this since I imagine it's -one of
the most important specifications- that should really be made clear to
purchasers.

And the 65,000 Sonos limit is actually much less if you have extensive
tags in your music files. The Sonos is a perfectly good system (I
bought a single unit to play with last year). But there are so many
limitations as compared with Squeezeboxes and LMS that it would take too
long to list them. Functionality that Squeezebox users have taken for
granted for many years doesn't exist in the Sonos ecosystem. We have
lots of discussions around here regarding the library database function
and how certain tags are handled, etc. With all of its issues, the
database/library/tag use of Squeezeboxes are light years ahead of the
Sonos handling of tags. At the Sonos forums there are lots of threads
on things like hi-res (Sonos plays only 16/44.1, or maybe 16/48, but not
24 bit) and track limit. Unfortunately, these turn in to mud slinging
contests (and be prepared to be told that if you say you need more than
65,000 tracks you're either lying or crazy). From what I understand,
the 65k limit (less with lots of tags) is a function of the
memory/processing power of the SONOS players. The system is very
different from LMS/SB. Each Sonos player has a complete index of all the
files. But I'm not expert on Sonos, so my interpretation is
oversimplified I'm sure.

My casual reading of the Sonos forums suggests that there are many users
there that are primarily interested in streaming services as compared to
their own music libraries. That may be a perfectly good business model
for SONOS, as that seems to fit the actual music listening market
(People like me with 100k tracks or more are dinosaurs I guess). But
even in the streaming world, many Sonos users have similar complaints to
us in terms of BBC changes (and at least we have workarounds that they
don't) and Spotify (lack of functionality), etc.



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[Archimago]

Thanks for the note Garym.

I see that SONOS was started back in 2002 so perhaps some of the
limitations can be understandable although to not update features like
add 24-bits support does take it out of contention for high-res music
downloads.

But BlueSound's limit seems really quite silly for a product that came
out in 2014! I presume it must also store the library in each unit and
they must be running into some storage limits for the library database.



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[poing]

Unfortunately, these turn in to mud slinging contests (and be prepared
to be told that if you say you need more than 65,000 tracks you're
either lying or crazy).

Or a file sharer who doesn't pay for his music ;)


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[Mnyb]

Post by poing
Or a file sharer who doesn't pay for his music ;)

... thats the OCD people here with >450000 tracks , you cant possible
listen to that even if you did not have a day job and did it for 10
hours a day . and then only listen once :D

65k is quite possible given that your now in your middle ages and you
and your spouse have collected music all your life , quite feasible not
at all weird . add a kid or two with their own music files .
I can easily see it go trough the 65k limit .



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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Was curious about some of the new music servers and did some reading in
the event that my Squeezebox system goes kaput one day...
Looks like the 'Sonos has a 65000 track limit'
(https://ask.sonos.com/sonos/topics/future_of_the_65k_limit).
BlueSound has a '~80000 track limit'
(https://support.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/articles/201253417-How-many-tracks-can-my-Bluesound-Player-index-on-the-network-).
Hmmm, looks like I'm "over the limit" with my music collection already
if I were to own one of these systems if I include all the vinyl rips
and SACD rips over the years! I must admit I was surprised by these
limits. I'm sure there must be many of you (us) out there with larger
libraries than these numbers.
A bit surprised and a bit disappointed by these limits. I'm impressed
again at the power and flexibility of the Squeezebox/LMS system! Also
strange how reviewers don't mention this since I imagine it's -one of
the most important specifications- that should really be made clear to
purchasers.

I have so many tracks in my music library that I'm hoping that Madonna
will want come visit me and dry hump my music server.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[garym]

Post by ralphpnj
I have so many tracks in my music library that I'm hoping that Madonna
will want come visit me and dry hump my music server.

:cool:



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
w/Battery (all ethernet)
*Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[ralphpnj]

All kidding aside I understand the popularity of the various music
streaming services however if one is a fan and listener of other musical
genres besides pop, rock, R&B, dance, rap, hip-hop then the music
streaming services tend to fall way short.

I listen to tons and tons of all kinds of jazz and I've never a
streaming service that has a decent avant-garde jazz selection. Sure
they have a few token recordings but the most part they don't offer much
music that falls outside of the popular music umbrella. I therefore
maintain my own "streaming music library" and while it does contain the
millions of tracks that are available on many music streaming services,
the all of tracks it does contain are of interest to me.

I hope that one of the many audio manufacturers now jumping on the
streaming bandwagon will make an effort to acquire or, at the very
least, license the Squeezebox technology and LMS software from Logitech.
That would be much better than using the worthless DNLA/UpnP technology
that so many of these manufacturers insist on employing. One can pretty
much count on any new music streaming device that relies on DNLA/UpnP
technology to be heavily discounted within 6 months of its launch and
discounted within a year.

Is it any wonder that the default high end music "streaming" system is
now a Mac Mini tethered to a USB DAC with some iPhone remote control
app. What a joke.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[probedb]

It's nice that the SB/LMS system is being kept alive by projects like
piCorePlayer too. I sold my original SB3 and bought a RPi with a
HifiBerry Digi+ board for less money. I see no reason to use a Sonos
player...so expensive in comparison.

As a programmer the only reason for these limits I can see are hardware
and if the database is indeed kept on each player that's probably why.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
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[utgg]

Post by probedb
It's nice that the SB/LMS system is being kept alive by projects like
piCorePlayer too. I sold my original SB3 and bought a RPi with a
HifiBerry Digi+ board for less money. I see no reason to use a Sonos
player...so expensive in comparison.
As a programmer the only reason for these limits I can see are hardware
and if the database is indeed kept on each player that's probably why.

Agree it is almost certainly a player memory size limitation - the
database is probably held in ram. Plus the use of 16-bit track
references.

It's instructive to have a feel for how much memory you actually need. I
would have thought 100 bytes average for per-track tag information would
be plenty of allowance. That is only 6MB for 64K tracks, a pathetically
small amount these days. In other words, if the player contained
something like a raspberry pi with 512M of memory, it should easily be
able to hold all the tag information for a million tracks in a well
organised in-memory database. A decent sized artwork cache is another
matter though.


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[Archimago]

"A decent sized artwork cache is another matter though."

This I presume must be the issue... Since the BlueSound can handle >65k
tracks, it must not be a 16-bit indexing limitation.

Based on this review:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/bluesound-vault

It looks like the BlueSound Vault only has 256MB of RAM on board and
another 4GB of flash. Since it can handle up to 600KB artwork, I suspect
it must be a limitation of that 4GB flash and size of artwork once you
get to ~80k tracks.

This brings up another issue for me with these music servers, for
~$1000, the hardware looks really weak (come on... let's at least put in
a 16GB flash, huh?). '$6000 servers with ARM/Atom core processor and
Vortexbox'
(http://www.audiostream.com/content/antipodes-reference-series-dx-music-server)?!
That's highway robbery IMO!



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
"A decent sized artwork cache is another matter though."
This I presume must be the issue... Since the BlueSound can handle >65k
tracks, it must not be a 16-bit indexing limitation.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/bluesound-vault
It looks like the BlueSound Vault only has 256MB of RAM on board and
another 4GB of flash. Since it can handle up to 600KB artwork, I suspect
it must be a limitation of that 4GB flash and size of artwork once you
get to ~80k tracks.
This brings up another issue for me with these music servers, for
~$1000, the hardware looks really weak (come on... let's at least put in
a 32GB flash - if not 64+GB, huh?). It is 2015 and full on 128GB SSDs
can be had as a consumer (not even manufacturer who can buy in bulk) for
$60.
'$6000 servers with Atom core processor and Vortexbox'
(http://www.audiostream.com/content/antipodes-reference-series-dx-music-server)?!
That's highway robbery IMO!

Funny you should that overpriced hardware is highway robbery in an
audiophile section - overpriced hardware is the most basic and important
feature of high end audio!

And then there is Apple which charges around $100 for each additional
64GB of flash memory in their iphones and ipads. The average retail
price for a 64GB flash drive is currently around $25 so the way I see it
gouging consumers makes for very good business and glowing reviews.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
Funny you should that overpriced hardware is highway robbery in an
audiophile section - overpriced hardware is the most basic and important
feature of high end audio!
And then there is Apple which charges around $100 for each additional
64GB of flash memory in their iphones and ipads. The average retail
price for a 64GB flash drive is currently around $25 so the way I see it
gouging consumers makes for very good business and glowing reviews.

Sad but true...

However, I must note that the $6000+ music server does have a nice
milled aluminum fascia (not sure if aeronautical grade). So it's
probably worth the extra few thousand dollars. :-)

Lets start a business folk. We can get it done for $3000 and undercut
the competition. We'll even throw in 8GB RAM and have the option for 4TB
of storage!



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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Sad but true...
However, I must note that the $6000+ music server does have a nice
milled aluminum fascia (not sure if aeronautical grade). So it's
probably worth the extra few thousand dollars. :-)
Lets start a business folk. We can get it done for $3000 and undercut
the competition. We'll even throw in 8GB RAM and have the option for 4TB
of storage! I know it'll be next to impossible and require all kinds of
feats of engineering never seen before... But Ralph is a genius at these
things! He told me once he sailed the Southern Seas and an apparition
came to him revealing all kinds of scientific audio truths the Gnostics
would have sacrificed their lives for... Right, Ralph?

I'm not sure about that Southern Seas voyage but I am pretty sure that
no matter hard we tried we could not build and sell a audiophile music
server for $3,000 that would be a success.

Here's why:

Let's say the cost to design and manufacture each music server comes up
to roughly $1,500 and we set the retail price at $3,000 which leaves a
hefty 50% profit.

So far so good but....

Now we have to add in the cost of advertising in the various high end
audio magazines and web sites

plus the cost of providing long term loans of the music server (i.e.
free units) to the same magazines and web sites

plus the cost of visiting each reviewer at each magazine and web site to
set up music server and buy them dinner (this could run into serious
money with air fare and hotels)

plus the cost of exhibiting at all the various high end audio shows
(this could run into serious money with air fare and hotels)

plus the cost of developing and listing both an iPhone and android app

As you can see even with a what appears to be a hefty 50% profit margin
we would barely break even, if not actually lose money. I think in order
to be safe we need to sell the music server for at least $10,000



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[riffer]

My media server was pretty nice looking (Silverstone Grandia GD04-USB3.0
Case), but it was the first thing I threw into the closet when I ran out
of shelf space. I know that a lot of users aren't tech-savy enough to
build their own, but there has to be at least one geek in the family
that can throw together components, load the O/S and LMS (that would be
me :) If anything, networking is the harder part, and you still have to
do that yourself.


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[Archimago]

Post by riffer
My media server was pretty nice looking (Silverstone Grandia GD04-USB3.0
Case), but it was the first thing I threw into the closet when I ran out
of shelf space. I know that a lot of users aren't tech-savy enough to
build their own, but there has to be at least one geek in the family
that can throw together components, load the O/S and LMS (that would be
me :) If anything, networking is the harder part, and you still have to
do that yourself.

Nice looking box riffer! Yeah, even if I weren't the go-to gadget geek
in my family, there'd be a few others to ask. IMO, if I'm going to build
a special server computer, it should be a reasonably powerful machine
otherwise I might as well just use a NAS device with whatever ARM/Atom
chips inside that can double as LMS or UPNP server.

Indeed, for years I put my server computer in the closet to reduce any
audible sound from the fans. Of course, these days, with fanless power
supplies and much cooler chips, it should be relatively quiet already.
Now, I just have the server in another room altogether.

I agree that the hardest part is the networking. Wired ethernet
especially with high-res material is essential IMO.



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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
I'm not sure about that Southern Seas voyage but I am pretty sure that
no matter hard we tried we could not build and sell a audiophile music
server for $3,000 that would be a success.
Let's say the cost to design and manufacture each music server comes up
to roughly $1,500 and we set the retail price at $3,000 which leaves a
hefty 50% profit.
So far so good but....
Now we have to add in the cost of advertising in the various high end
audio magazines and web sites
plus the cost of providing long term loans of the music server (i.e.
free units) to the same magazines and web sites
plus the cost of visiting each reviewer at each magazine and web site to
set up music server and buy them dinner (this could run into serious
money with air fare and hotels)
plus the cost of exhibiting at all the various high end audio shows
(this could run into serious money with air fare and hotels)
plus the cost of developing and listing both an iPhone and android app
As you can see even with a what appears to be a hefty 50% profit margin
we would barely break even, if not actually lose money. I think in order
to be safe we need to sell the music server for at least $10,000

True... There is the issue with the marketing budget. But I wouldn't
worry too much! When it comes to the audio reviewers I don't think it's
the same as entertaining Wallstreet bankers. A flight here and there to
a domestic audio show, a few tickets to the local symphony, domestic
wine with dinner; I don't think that's a problem.

We could enjoy visiting a few reviewer's homes (a server computer isn't
too bad to lug around)... Check out the quality of the acoustics, enjoy
some LPs played back with He-Man-weight turntables and compare the sound
to our glorious server-based digital audio, chat about the "golden
years" of hi-fi, test their hearing ability with a few choice MP3 tracks
and marvel at their remarkable ability to differentiate Red Book from
24/192. All on the company's corporate account!

As for audio shows: We don't need to get our own room as a start. Share
a room with a decent speaker and amp startup, talk to some cable company
to share the cost.

Finally, no worries about the iPhone/Android app. Remember, we're
running Vortexbox and LMS! The apps are there already... Heck, we should
even a gift certificate for $10 to either iTunes store or Google Play
for them to buy whatever app they want!

-Pssst... One last thing, I'm trying to build mystique around you with
that South Seas voyage. This way when you're a zillionaire, we can
invite Madonna over to dry hump your audio rack. :-) Of course, that
could be a few year from now and maybe she wouldn't titillate you in the
same fashion...-



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[marflao]

Post by ralphpnj
I'm not sure about that Southern Seas voyage but I am pretty sure that
no matter hard we tried we could not build and sell a audiophile music
server for $3,000 that would be a success.
Let's say the cost to design and manufacture each music server comes up
to roughly $1,500 and we set the retail price at $3,000 which leaves a
hefty 50% profit.
So far so good but....
Now we have to add in the cost of advertising in the various high end
audio magazines and web sites
plus the cost of providing long term loans of the music server (i.e.
free units) to the same magazines and web sites
plus the cost of visiting each reviewer at each magazine and web site to
set up music server and buy them dinner (this could run into serious
money with air fare and hotels)
plus the cost of exhibiting at all the various high end audio shows
(this could run into serious money with air fare and hotels)
plus the cost of developing and listing both an iPhone and android app
As you can see even with a what appears to be a hefty 50% profit margin
we would barely break even, if not actually lose money. I think in order
to be safe we need to sell the music server for at least $10,000

Run it as a crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo of Kickstarter and you
might get all (or almost) of those costs covered ;-)
Add the viral marketing for this campaign at the usual "audiophile"
forums and the chances that the project will come alive aren't too bad i
would guess.




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[probedb]

Post by utgg
Agree it is almost certainly a player memory size limitation - the
database is probably held in ram. Plus the use of 16-bit track
references.
It's instructive to have a feel for how much memory you actually need. I
would have thought 100 bytes average for per-track tag information would
be plenty of allowance. That is only 6MB for 64K tracks, a pathetically
small amount these days. In other words, if the player contained
something like a raspberry pi with 512M of memory, it should easily be
able to hold all the tag information for a million tracks in a well
organised in-memory database. A decent sized artwork cache is another
matter though.

100 bytes is nothing though and if the tags are unicode then you just
halved that. 50 characters wouldn't cover the song title + artist for
many of the bands I listen to.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
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[utgg]

Post by probedb
100 bytes is nothing though and if the tags are unicode then you just
halved that. 50 characters wouldn't cover the song title + artist for
many of the bands I listen to.

I did say well organised. And I still maintain 100 is reasonable as an
average - for all those long titles there will plenty of short ones as
well. No need to store as full unicode - and the strings are readily
compressible if you want. Artist strings and the like shouldn't be
stored against every track (and you are doing well if you have a library
with a million different artists in it...), and there's little point in
storing any tags in the database that aren't there for searching and
sorting - if you want to see full tag information on a particular track
then just look at the file itself.


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[reinholdk]

Archimago, you should know better that you will not succeed with your
business if you try to undercut the competition. You have to sell with a
higher price!


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[Mnyb]

Post by reinholdk
Archimago, you should know better that you will not succeed with your
business if you try to undercut the competition. You have to sell with a
higher price!

Yes that's the weird economy for luxury items for the rich .

You sell more if you hike the price ! Porsche did that mistakes in the
80's and early 90's was it not some model that was relatively "
affordable" so that just maybe a working class hero could get one if he
worked hard and saved up for it .

Sales took a nose dive , no one wants the the same brands as any j6p :)

To further increase the hype not even money should be enough , there
should be a waiting list and not any one can get one only a true
audiophile , warranty will be revoked if it's not used with 1000$ cables
...



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Archimago]

Post by Mnyb
Yes that's the weird economy for luxury items for the rich .
You sell more if you hike the price ! Porsche did that mistakes in the
80's and early 90's was it not some model that was relatively "
affordable" so that just maybe a working class hero could get one if he
worked hard and saved up for it .
Sales took a nose dive , no one wants the the same brands as any j6p :)
To further increase the hype not even money should be enough , there
should be a waiting list and not any one can get one only a true
audiophile , warranty will be revoked if it's not used with 1000$ cables
...

Okay. Fine. I have seen the light!

$12,500.01 it is.

Not a penny less! And to optimize the performance of this server
machine, it'll have a 8GB vintage 10-year-old flash drive (because those
were the quietest drives of course!). 2X DVD burner circa 2001 approved
by some-elderly-tube-gear-maker-in-Japan, probably made by Creative. And
I'll settle on a 1TB drive with no upgrades available. I know, 256GB
would have been better (with less electrical noise of course) and
probably would be fine for those who only listen to a few audiophile
albums like 'Kind Of Blue', Diana Krall discography, 'Jazz In The
Pawnshop'...

On the software side, it'll just have to be stripped to the bone with
our Linux install. Might need to wrestle a little to get everything to
fit on 8GB flash (Vortexbox, LMS, caches...). Of course no other
packages or extraneous background daemons; that would just destroy the
sound quality.

Dual-core Atom for netbooks would be good enough, anything faster would
also damage the sound. And of course 2GB RAM is plenty.

Add aeronautical milled aluminum fascia.

Clearly: The. Ultimate. Serving. Machine.

Enjoy!

:-)



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Wombat]

Reminds me on some garbage i once wrote.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/202369-hand-made-sata-cable-cat-5.html#post2824871
NO joke, i got PMs for that asking for more details because others hear
the same!



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[riffer]

Post by Wombat
Reminds me on some garbage i once wrote.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/202369-hand-made-sata-cable-cat-5.html#post2824871
NO joke, i got PMs for that asking for more details because others hear
the same!

Lol! That's funny.


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[reinholdk]

Post by Archimago
Clearly: The. Ultimate. Serving. Machine.

And this is the name of your business: T.U.S.M.

(I agree to receive $1,000 per sold unit from you.)


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[Mnyb]

Post by Archimago
Okay. Fine. I have seen the light!
$12,500.01 it is.
Not a penny less! And to optimize the performance of this server
machine, it'll have a 8GB vintage 10-year-old flash drive (because those
were the quietest drives of course!). 2X DVD burner circa 2001 approved
by some-elderly-tube-gear-maker-in-Japan, probably made by Creative. And
I'll settle on a 1TB drive with no upgrades available. I know, 256GB
would have been better (with less electrical noise of course) and
probably would be fine for those who only listen to a few audiophile
albums like 'Kind Of Blue', Diana Krall discography, 'Jazz In The
Pawnshop'...
On the software side, it'll just have to be stripped to the bone with
our Linux install. Might need to wrestle a little to get everything to
fit on 8GB flash (Vortexbox, LMS, caches...). Of course no other
packages or extraneous background daemons; that would just destroy the
sound quality.
Dual-core Atom for netbooks would be good enough, anything faster would
also damage the sound. And of course 2GB RAM is plenty.
Add aeronautical milled aluminum fascia.
Clearly: The. Ultimate. Serving. Machine.
Enjoy!
:-)

I can be the European distributor with a hefty markup at at least 50% or
more , we are used to oligopoly situations and no competition regarding
American or Japanese high end here in Europe . To defeat grey market and
used import we can outfit the device with a circuit that sense the 50Hz
AC and turn it off unless I have it it in for "service" for a
substantial fee ofcourse . Wait that sounds familiar did not Krell do
that for a while :D (it is actually true , google .... )



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Okay. Fine. I have seen the light!
$12,500.01 it is.
Not a penny less! And to optimize the performance of this server
machine, it'll have a 8GB vintage 10-year-old flash drive (because those
were the quietest drives of course!). 2X DVD burner circa 2001 approved
by some-elderly-tube-gear-maker-in-Japan, probably made by Creative. And
I'll settle on a 1TB drive with no upgrades available. I know, 256GB
would have been better (with less electrical noise of course) and
probably would be fine for those who only listen to a few audiophile
albums like 'Kind Of Blue', Diana Krall discography, 'Jazz In The
Pawnshop'...
On the software side, it'll just have to be stripped to the bone with
our Linux install. Might need to wrestle a little to get everything to
fit on 8GB flash (Vortexbox, LMS, caches...). Of course no other
packages or extraneous background daemons; that would just destroy the
sound quality.
Dual-core Atom for netbooks would be good enough, anything faster would
also damage the sound. And of course 2GB RAM is plenty.
Add aeronautical milled aluminum fascia.
Clearly: The. Ultimate. Serving. Machine.
Enjoy!
:-)

A nice start and here are some suggestions to enhance the audiophile
street cred:

heavy duty audiophile grade power supply, preferably in a separate box

SSD drives - no moving parts

Micro SD card slot that will only work with Sony Premium Sound micro sd
cards

Built in DSD capable DAC with tubed output stage

No wireless adapter, only Ethernet, which of course will only work with
Audioquest Ethernet cables

Silver solder and pure oxygen free copper wire throughout

And for a mere $5,000 extra a Sony Premium Sound micro sd card preloaded
with 32bit/384kHz Super High Resolution versions of the last 10 HP Super
Disc lists.

I hope you like my suggestions.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Mnyb]

Can it not be flash promed with all the 50 usual suspects in audiophile
music :D no internet ....



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
Can it not be flash promed with all the 50 usual suspects in audiophile
music :D no internet ....

Which is EXACTLY what 90% of the garbage on the HP Super Discs lists is
- pure audiophile approved well recorded trash.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
Which is EXACTLY what 90% of the garbage on the HP Super Discs lists is
- pure audiophile approved well recorded trash.

I meant on circuits soldered in the device not on removable media :D who
ever want to listen to something else



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
I meant on circuits soldered in the device not on removable media :D who
ever want to listen to something else

In that case the model with the preinstalled audiophile recordings would
be the Super Disc Deluxe Model and would sell for a minimum $5,000
extra.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

Post by ralphpnj
In that case the model with the preinstalled audiophile recordings would
be the Super Disc Deluxe Model and would sell for a minimum $5,000
extra.

Yes. That sounds about right.

It'll be a bit of work though. The only way these recordings would sound
any good is if we do vinyl drops at 384kHz, 32-bits floating point using
the esteemed Caliburn turntable and esoteric cartridge (at least set us
back another $40,000). That could really up the start-up costs,
unfortunately. Plus if we keep them as uncompressed WAV or AIFF (because
of course FLAC sounds inferior and it doesn't handle 32-bits), that's
potentially lots of GB storage.

No worries. I'm pretty sure there'll be tons of interest in the "Super
Disc Deluxe Model" - merely $12,500.01 + $5,000 = *$17,500.01*. It is
The.Ultimate.Serving.Machine after all!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Yes. That sounds about right.
It'll be a bit of work though. The only way these recordings would sound
any good in digital is if we do vinyl drops at 384kHz, 32-bits floating
point using the esteemed Caliburn turntable and esoteric cartridge (at
least set us back another $40,000). That could really up the start-up
costs, unfortunately. Plus if we keep them as uncompressed WAV or AIFF
(because of course FLAC sounds inferior and it doesn't handle 32-bits),
that's potentially lots of GB storage.
No worries. I'm pretty sure there'll be tons of interest in the "Super
Disc Deluxe Model" - merely $12,500.01 + $5,000 = *$17,500.01*. It is
The.Ultimate.Serving.Machine after all!

What? No way, Archimago we just upsample 16bit/44.1kHz wav files and
then tell them that it's NOT our fault, those are the files we received
from the record label :)

Wait a second, that sounds very familiar. Hummmm



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[poing]

Post by utgg
I did say well organised. And I still maintain 100 is reasonable as an
average - for all those long titles there will plenty of short ones as
well.

100 bytes is ridiculously small. For search, you need to store artist,
album artist, composer, track name, album name, genre, release year,
etc.

And I'm not sure if it's that easy to ditch unicode considerung vorbis
comments as well as most id3 variants store tag fields in unicode.

Back in the late 90s, many if not most people used ID3v1. It was always
a major PITA to be limited to a tag with no more than 128 bytes (or 125
usable bytes). 30 byte song and album titles seemed never enough.


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[probedb]

Post by utgg
I did say well organised. And I still maintain 100 is reasonable as an
average - for all those long titles there will plenty of short ones as
well. No need to store as full unicode - and the strings are readily
compressible if you want. Artist strings and the like shouldn't be
stored against every track (and you are doing well if you have a library
with a million different artists in it...), and there's little point in
storing any tags in the database that aren't there for searching and
sorting - if you want to see full tag information on a particular track
then just look at the file itself.

It isn't....and you just changed the goalposts. Let's take just one
track from my collection:

Artist Name: 65daysofstatic
Track Title: The Distant & Mechanised Glow of Eastern European Dance
Parties
Album Title: The Destruction of Small Ideas

...just broke your reasonable limit and that's without anything
including track number, genre, date, total tracks or any number of other
common fields. yes you have shorter fields but 100 as a reasonable
average, come on I think not. The track title may be slightly longer
than average but the Artist Name and Album Title certainly aren't.

My collection is very well organised thanks.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
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[poing]

Post by probedb
Track Title: The Distant & Mechanised Glow of Eastern European Dance
Parties

I can beat that with the following track titles:

"When The Going Gets Tough, The Tough Get Karazee (Serious Bonus Beats
Mix)"

or

"Wortkabular (Tobi Neumann S
Ricardosingtvocalpercussionundgretadasalphabet Rmx)"

or

"A Huge Ever Growing Pulsating Brain That Rules From The Centre Of The
Ultraworld (Live Mix MK 10)"

:D


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[utgg]

Post by probedb
It isn't....and you just changed the goalposts. Let's take just one
Artist Name: 65daysofstatic
Track Title: The Distant & Mechanised Glow of Eastern European Dance
Parties
Album Title: The Destruction of Small Ideas
...just broke your reasonable limit and that's without anything
including track number, genre, date, total tracks or any number of other
common fields. yes you have shorter fields but 100 as a reasonable
average, come on I think not. The track title may be slightly longer
than average but the Artist Name and Album Title certainly aren't.
My collection is very well organised thanks.

I wasn't referring to how you might organise your collection, just how a
to well organise an in-memory database for efficient use of memory...

Ok, some numbers from my modest and motley collection of 14000 odd
tracks. It's mostly full albums, with plenty of long names like above.
Also a large number of compilations (i.e. different artists per track),
a lot of classical (few tracks per work/album, with long track names),
and for a large proportion of the tracks there are multiple artists
(composer, 'featuring' etc) per track. These numbers come from my own
LMS controller app I did ages ago for Symbian, where the full
track/artist/album/genre/year data is downloaded from LMS and stored
in-memory in the phone.

So, for 13828 tracks, 6304 artists, 1159 albums, 63 genres, 52 years,
there are 424480 bytes of UTF8 strings. That's only 31 bytes per track.
Added to that is all the indexing stuff to link the
tracks,artists,albums,genres and years together (including track
numbers) - that comes to another 400kB for what I had. Still only 60
bytes per track.

For a fully functional music server database you'd want file format,
duration, volume adjustments, date, etc, but that is still not a lot of
data in binary form. The biggest thing, and the thing I've missed here,
is the file path, which is probably well over 100 bytes. Still, even
there there are simple things that can be done to reduce the storage
required, like storing common directories separately and other very
simple compression.

The point I'm trying to make here is that if you have a cheap and very
memory constrained processor, you can still handle an in-memory database
of a very large number of tracks in what is a pretty small amount of
memory these days if you try. Also, for a Sonos-like system where every
node holds a copy of the database, the whole of a millon track database
could be synced over the network in a few seconds. Including to
smartphone controller apps. So going back to the start of the thread, 64
- 80k track limits are pretty feeble.

So now I'm wondering what's actually in the 48MB of my LMS library.db
file...


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[JJZolx]

I'm impressed again at the power and flexibility of the Squeezebox/LMS
system!

It's pretty simple, really. There's a big difference between systems
with servers running (mostly) on general purpose computers rather than
having software running on the limited, low power hardware contained in
many devices. It's exactly the same problem that Logitech ran in to when
it misread the ability of the Touch to run Squeezebox Server. That's a
big reason why those systems are often limited in library sizes.


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[Mnyb]

Post by JJZolx
It's pretty simple, really. There's a big difference between systems
with servers running (mostly) on general purpose computers rather than
having software running on the limited, low power hardware contained in
many devices. It's exactly the same problem that Logitech ran in to when
it misread the ability of the Touch to run Squeezebox Server. That's a
big reason why those systems are often limited in library sizes.

+1 yes people thats own Sonos does not think they are runing any kind of
server , supose it's exactly whats going in the base unit but on limited
hardware .

They also have very limited tag support , i'm not and avanced tagged or
database guru , that's goes over my head in most of these treads .

But as sonos dont support more than one of each tag ? No multiple artist
or multiple genre or multiple anything tag .
You can't tag a thing with those limitations .

For example an album with an album artist then multiple track artist and
suppose that album is also a jazz album and a soundtrack to a movie or
whatever combination .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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