Marantz Da-11S1

[[e-mail]]

Has anyone listened to this network player?

Any thoughts on it?


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[Blue Fishey]

you mean NA-11S1

http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ReferenceSeries&ProductId=NA11S1


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[[e-mail]]

Post by Blue Fishey
you mean NA-11S1
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ReferenceSeries&ProductId=NA11S1

Yes sorry.


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[get.amped]

I really should stop reading threads in this forum. That one device
costs more than what I paid for my entire stereo including pre-amp,
amps, speakers, SB, DAC, interconnects, speaker cables, power
protection/conditioning, DVD-A player and turntable.



Win7Pro(x64)[3.3Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 120GB SSD system, 15TB storage], LMS
7.7.3 -> Logitech Squeezebox Classic V.3 -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic ->
NAD C160 -> 2 x NAD C272 -> Quad 22L2
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[Audiotic]

Post by get.amped
I really should stop reading threads in this forum. That one device
costs more than what I paid for my entire stereo including pre-amp,
amps, speakers, SB, DAC, interconnects, speaker cables, power
protection/conditioning, DVD-A player and turntable.

:-). Don't stop! Yes there are always people with more money to burn
:-). But we (I at leadt) started small. 35 years ago....



MacMini CoreDuo, 600 GB of mostly ALAC lossless music (iTunes ripped) ->
Black Transporter (analog & digital out), and Marantz DV8400 vM mod for
SACD + DVD-A, via Siltech Paris to Harman Kardon AVR 8500 & HK PA2200
Signature -> 6 x Mission 780SE & 78C & 2 x REL Strata III
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[ralphpnj]

Post by jhonsberger-***@public.gmane.org
Has anyone listened to this network player?
Any thoughts on it?
Na-11s1 I meant

When it comes to music/media streaming how good a device sounds is only
half of the story. The other and equally important half is the
useability of the device. And it is this second half that just about
every high end music streamer seems to ignore.

When the computer on which one's music library is located runs Windows
then the "solution" is the completely unworkable DLNA and UPnP nonsense,
which are about as user UNfriendly as can be possibly imagined. If the
computer on which one's music library is located is a Mac then one is
"solution" is usually some iTunes/AirPlay combo and while this combo is
more user friendly and workable then the DLNA and UPnP nonsense (but
then again the bar is set extremely low), the iTunes/AirPlay combo is
far from ideal.

That said, the Marantz unit does have an iPad/iPhone app so it must be
really, really good.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[jimmypowder]

Post by ralphpnj
When it comes to music/media streaming how good a device sounds is
only half of the story. The other and equally important half is the
useability of the device. And it is this second half that just about
every high end music streamer seems to ignore. When the computer on
which one's music library is located runs Windows then the "solution" is
the completely unworkable DLNA and UPnP nonsense, which are about as
user UNfriendly as can be possibly imagined. If the computer on which
one's music library is located is a Mac then one is "solution" is
usually some iTunes/AirPlay combo and while this combo is more user
friendly and workable then the DLNA and UPnP nonsense (but then again
the bar is set extremely low), the iTunes/AirPlay combo is far from
ideal. That said, the Marantz unit does have an iPad/iPhone app so it
must be really, really good.

So you haven't heard it ?




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[ralphpnj]

Post by jimmypowder
So you haven't heard it ?

No I have not heard it and until Marantz devises another way to actually
use the device I have no intention of hearing it. However if you are
interested in this or any other high end music streaming device I
strongly suggest that you just wait a few months for the manufacturer to
discontinue the device. Without a user friendly way to operate these
devices all these high end music streaming devices quickly fail in the
marketplace and the price drops. Heck the Musical Fidelity CLiC barely
lasted a few months before being discontinued and the Cambridge Audio
StreamMagic 6 Network Music Player is following the same story line.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[jimmypowder]

Post by ralphpnj
No I have not heard it and until Marantz devises another way to
actually use the device I have no intention of hearing it. However if
you are interested in this or any other high end music streaming device
I strongly suggest that you just wait a few months for the manufacturer
to discontinue the device. Without a user friendly way to operate these
devices all these high end music streaming devices quickly fail in the
marketplace and the price drops. Heck the Musical Fidelity CLiC barely
lasted a few months before being discontinued and the Cambridge Audio
StreamMagic 6 Network Music Player is following the same story line.

So you haven't heard it , haven't used it , yet you you still
arbitrarily make judgements on it based on the ability to control
playback , ala ipeng !


What a joke .




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[jimmypowder]

Post by jimmypowder
So you haven't heard it , haven't used it , yet you you still
arbitrarily make judgements on it based on the ability to control
playback , ala ipeng ! What a joke .

Based on your responses to the Marantz and Auralic streamers , I doubt
your judgment is worth a plug nickel .

Remote control would be the last item on the list
that I would consider pivotal in buying an audiophile music streamer .




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[jimmypowder]

Post by jimmypowder
So you haven't heard it , haven't used it , yet you you still
arbitrarily make judgements on it based on the ability to control
playback , ala ipeng ! What a joke . Based on your responses to the Marantz and Auralic streamers , I

doubt your judgment is worth a plug nickel . Remote control would be
the last item on the list that I would consider pivotal in buying an
audiophile music streamer . I can move my fat ass up off the couch and
change a few things anyway




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[ralphpnj]

Post by jimmypowder
Based on your responses to the Marantz and Auralic streamers , I doubt
your judgment is worth a plug nickel . Remote control would be the
last item on the list that I would consider pivotal in buying an
audiophile music streamer . I can move my fat ass up off the couch and
change a few things anyway

I'm not referring to remote control, which I'm quite sure any and all
music streamers can do very well. I'm referring to the software/system
that organizes one's music library - you know all those digital audio
files that need to be streamed to the player. In the case of all
Squeezebox devices this function is handled by Logitech Media Server
(LMS) but in the case of these DNLA/UPnP devices it is handled by a
program such as Window Media Player or iTunes, both of which are, how
shall I say this, somewhat lacking. Remember apps like iPeng and Orange
Squeeze are simply interfaces that control and use LMS - they do not
replace LMS.

Besides it makes no difference what you or I believe since it the
marketplace which will decide and so far based on the failure rate of
the music streamer in the marketplace, i.e. they are not selling, I
would say that most people agree with me without even knowing.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Audiotic]

Post by jhonsberger-***@public.gmane.org
Has anyone listened to this network player?
Any thoughts on it?
Na-11s1 I meant

Own one since 2 weeks. LOVE it! OK, the way to officially get sound from
it, i.e. the app and DLNA etc isn't brilliant... But the sound is.

Here's what I use to get very good useability combined with top sound:

1. Use an SB Touch with linear power supply, and with EDO installed.
Coax out (with top cable) to the NA11S1.
2. SB Server 7.7.3 for my collection, maintained via iTunes. Significant
part of the collection is hires (92-192), and all is ALAC. Runs on a
2010 MacMini, dedicated, with a FireWire attached Drobo2, containing all
the files.
3. Use SqueezePad or iPeng to control the SBT, tune to internet radio
etc.

Work perfect for all resolutions, the Marantz indicates the correct
resolution. And now I have top useability, and Album Art on the SBT.

For DSD files I use another, dedicated, MacMini 2011, with Audirvana.
The actual DSD ISO files are stored on the above mentioned MM (on the
Drobo) that has the ALAC's as well, so it's almost like I'm streaming
DSD :-) This MM is now linked to the Marantz via USB, Audirvana sees it
as High Speed USB Audio device.



MacMini CoreDuo, 600 GB of mostly ALAC lossless music (iTunes ripped) ->
Black Transporter (analog & digital out), and Marantz DV8400 vM mod for
SACD + DVD-A, via Siltech Paris to Harman Kardon AVR 8500 & HK PA2200
Signature -> 6 x Mission 780SE & 78C & 2 x REL Strata III
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[jimmypowder]

OK back to the original question, and let me show how, for me, I
created a very useable system that serves me very very well. I own an
NA-11S1 since 2 weeks. And all I can say is: I LOVE IT! OK, the way to
officially get sound from it, i.e. the app and DLNA etc isn't
brilliant... But the sound is. So, here's what I use to get very good
useability combined with top sound: 1. Use an SB Touch with linear
power supply, and with EDO installed. Coax out (with top cable) to the
NA11S1. 2. LMS / SBServer 7.7.3 for my collection, maintained via
iTunes. Significant part of the collection is hires (92-192), and all is
ALAC. Runs on a 2010 MacMini, dedicated, with a FireWire attached
Drobo2, containing all the files. 3. Use SqueezePad or iPeng to control
the SBT, tune to internet radio etc. Work perfect for all resolutions,
the Marantz indicates the correct resolution. And now I have top
useability, and Album Art on the SBT. For DSD files I use another,
dedicated, MacMini 2011, with Audirvana. The actual DSD ISO files are
stored on the above mentioned MM (on the Drobo) that has the ALAC's as
well, so it's almost like I'm streaming DSD :-) This MM is now linked
to the Marantz via USB, Audirvana sees it as High Speed USB Audio
device.

So since your using the Marantz as a dac , does the dac sound better
then the Transporter's .




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[Audiotic]

Miles better!



MacMini CoreDuo, 600 GB of mostly ALAC lossless music (iTunes ripped) ->
Black Transporter (analog & digital out), and Marantz DV8400 vM mod for
SACD + DVD-A, via Siltech Paris to Harman Kardon AVR 8500 & HK PA2200
Signature -> 6 x Mission 780SE & 78C & 2 x REL Strata III
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[[e-mail]]

Post by Audiotic
Miles better!

How does it compare to the Nad M51 Dac?


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[Audiotic]

Post by jhonsberger-***@public.gmane.org
How does it compare to the Nad M51 Dac?

I haven't personally heard it, but according the the (good) German
magazine Stereo it plays in the same league, they rate the Marantz only
sligthly above it.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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MacMini CoreDuo, 600 GB of mostly ALAC lossless music (iTunes ripped) ->
Black Transporter (analog & digital out), and Marantz DV8400 vM mod for
SACD + DVD-A, via Siltech Paris to Harman Kardon AVR 8500 & HK PA2200
Signature -> 6 x Mission 780SE & 78C & 2 x REL Strata III
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[Archimago]

Post by Audiotic
I haven't personally heard it, but according the the (good) German
magazine Stereo it plays in the same league, they rate the Marantz only
sligthly above it.
Also Audio says the same.

Interesting ratings Audiotic. I wonder is the rating done purely from
subjective evaluation or is it some composite of objective pieces,
convenience, appearance, etc...?

I see the Transporter is still graded at 110 "reference class" on the
chart.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Audiotic]

The rating is pure on audio quality, sound so to say. Well, I used to
have a Linn Akurate DS/1 before my Marantz, and aTransporter before
that. They all sound different. The Linn and Marantz are leagues better
that theTransporter, which was very good as well. The Marantz is jus,
well, different, that the Linn. Less analytical, maybe a touch warmer. i
made the move because I wanted to play my DSD files through it and I
could do a fully cost-neutral swap :-)



MacMini CoreDuo, 600 GB of mostly ALAC lossless music (iTunes ripped) ->
Black Transporter (analog & digital out), and Marantz DV8400 vM mod for
SACD + DVD-A, via Siltech Paris to Harman Kardon AVR 8500 & HK PA2200
Signature -> 6 x Mission 780SE & 78C & 2 x REL Strata III
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[Mnyb]

Ok then what is "pure audio quality" :)

A blind test would count , the listener don't see or know anything about
the product under test .
Or a measurement .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[[e-mail]]

Post by Mnyb
Ok then what is "pure audio quality" :)
A blind test would count , the listener don't see or know anything about
the product under test .
Or a measurement .

I look at the equipment's appearance to determine which one sounds
better.

This one is a beauty:

Loading Image...


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[ralphpnj]

OK back to the original question, and let me show how, for me, I created
a very useable system that serves me very very well.
I own an NA-11S1 since 2 weeks. And all I can say is: I LOVE IT! OK, the
way to officially get sound from it, i.e. the app and DLNA etc isn't
brilliant... But the sound is.
So, here's what I use to get very good useability combined with top
1. Use an SB Touch with linear power supply, and with EDO installed.
Coax out (with top cable) to the NA11S1.
2. LMS / SBServer 7.7.3 for my collection, maintained via iTunes.
Significant part of the collection is hires (92-192), and all is ALAC.
Runs on a 2010 MacMini, dedicated, with a FireWire attached Drobo2,
containing all the files.
3. Use SqueezePad or iPeng to control the SBT, tune to internet radio
etc.
So since your using the Marantz as a dac , does the dac sound better
then the Transporter's .

Hey Jimmy

I know it's a small sample size (one user) but nonetheless this proves
my point - namely that DLNA is a dog. In fact even you (as quoted above)
recognize that Audiotic is using the Marantz as a DAC with the SB Touch
doing the actual streaming. But you don't have to spend lots of money to
see how truly useless DLNA is, just buy an inexpensive media player or
network enabled DVD/Blu-ray player and try to get it to work. I suggest
that you also buy a very large bottle of Excedrin to help with monster
headache trying to get DLNA to work will bring on. Good luck!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Audiotic]

Post by ralphpnj
Hey Jimmy
I know it's a small sample size (one user) but nonetheless this proves
my point - namely that DLNA is a dog. In fact even you (as quoted above)
recognize that Audiotic is using the Marantz as a DAC with the SB Touch
doing the actual streaming. But you don't have to spend lots of money to
see how truly useless DLNA is, just buy an inexpensive media player or
network enabled DVD/Blu-ray player and try to get it to work. I suggest
that you also buy a very large bottle of Excedrin to help with monster
headache trying to get DLNA to work will bring on. Good luck!

:-)

For exactly that reason I use LMS and an SBT: useability. And the
quality of the sound is (solely?) determined by the DAC. The Marantz
takes the bits from the SBT, buffers them, reclocks them, and does its
other magic.
Listening to my music is a combination of ease and quality. This combo
provides that. Now if the SBT could handle DSD, it would be perfect :-)

One big positive was the use of EDO on the SBT (thanks so much to the
developer(s)!) unleashing the full potential.

I'm a happy guy :-)



MacMini CoreDuo, 600 GB of mostly ALAC lossless music (iTunes ripped) ->
Black Transporter (analog & digital out), and Marantz DV8400 vM mod for
SACD + DVD-A, via Siltech Paris to Harman Kardon AVR 8500 & HK PA2200
Signature -> 6 x Mission 780SE & 78C & 2 x REL Strata III
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[[e-mail]]

Post by Audiotic
:-)
For exactly that reason I use LMS and an SBT: useability. And the
quality of the sound is (solely?) determined by the DAC. The Marantz
takes the bits from the SBT, buffers them, reclocks them, and does its
other magic.
Listening to my music is a combination of ease and quality. This combo
provides that. Now if the SBT could handle DSD, it would be perfect :-)
One big positive was the use of EDO on the SBT (thanks so much to the
developer(s)!) unleashing the full potential.
I'm a happy guy :-)

If the dac solely determines the audio quality ,then would not a SBT
sound as good as a Linn streamer or the Marantz in stream not dac mode
connected to the same dac?
Doesn't jitter reduction at the player level matter any? Any audio
engineers out there who could answer this?


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[ralphpnj]

Post by jhonsberger-***@public.gmane.org
If the dac solely determines the audio quality ,then would not a SBT
sound as good as a Linn streamer or the Marantz in stream not dac mode
connected to the same dac?
Doesn't jitter reduction at the player level matter any? Any audio
engineers out there who could answer this?

Jitter can only be heard after one drinks lots and lots of audiophile
kool-aid or if one happens to write for any of the high end audio
magazines. Normal humans in normal listening situations can not hear
jitter, even the dreaded USB jitter.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[[e-mail]]

Post by ralphpnj
Jitter can only be heard after one drinks lots and lots of audiophile
kool-aid or if one happens to write for any of the high end audio
magazines. Normal humans in normal listening situations can not hear
jitter, even the dreaded USB jitter.

I just heard it after the margaritas(plural) i just drank.

ah yiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!


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[[e-mail]]

Post by ralphpnj
Jitter can only be heard after one drinks lots and lots of audiophile
kool-aid or if one happens to write for any of the high end audio
magazines. Normal humans in normal listening situations can not hear
jitter, even the dreaded USB jitter.

So your saying the SBT streamer will sound just as good as a Linn
Streamer connected to the same dac?


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[ralphpnj]

Post by jhonsberger-***@public.gmane.org
So your saying the SBT streamer will sound just as good as a Linn
Streamer connected to the same dac?A good dac can completely
eliminate the jitterbug?100%

All kidding aside I suggest that you do a little research on the topic
of jitter. What you will find is that most, if not all, of the
references that believe that jitter is a big bad monster, is completely
audible and totally destroys the sound are from high end audio magazines
or online sites. And most of the references that believe that the whole
jitter obsession is nonsense are from technical and computer
publications and online sites. You decide.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[jimmypowder]

Post by ralphpnj
All kidding aside I suggest that you do a little research on the topic
of jitter. What you will find is that most, if not all, of the
references that believe that jitter is a big bad monster, is completely
audible and totally destroys the sound are from high end audio magazines
or online sites. And most of the references that believe that the whole
jitter obsession is nonsense are from technical and computer
publications and online sites. You decide.

Then why does my Transporter sound better then my SBT fed into the same
dac,playing the same speakers ?
The player seems to matter here .




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[Mnyb]

Post by jimmypowder
Then why does my Transporter sound better then my SBT fed into the same
dac,playing the same speakers ?
The player seems to matter here .

Does it really , have you tried that assumptions under blind conditions
?

Any reasonably good transport will sound the same in to any reasonably
well designed DAC .

There can be other reasons than jitter if it's really a difference ,
good old fashioned electrical noise , tried the toslink ?
Almost all existing transports spinning or not have jitter levels far
below what's audiable .

You should go to archimagos blog and see his different measurements on
euipment he have measured many aspects on squeezeboxes .

On topic does not EDO with vortexbox or CSOS version of LMS support DSD
? DoP or what's it called . It may eventually show up in the regular LMS
as a plugin ( by triode I think ) .

Or be pragmatic about it and convert the DSD to 24/88.2kHz flac for
greater compatibility the eventual magic sauce in DSD is the actual
recording , consumer playback format do not matter that much if they are

Post by jimmypowder
=Redbook the actual quality of the recording has much more influence..

Is there really any real music avaible in DSD yet or it's only special
audiophile labels ? And the quantities are small anyway .
Would you really get the optimal DAC for your music collection if you
must tick the DSD box to narrow the choices ?
You may exclude perfectly fine DAC's that just don't have DSD .

Not that I doubt that the Marantz kit mentioned may be a contender
anyway and DSD is a bonus function .

Been there done that got the t-shirt , I jumped on the DVDA bandwagon a
decade ago and do have a lot of discs but it could go months between
actual playback . And that's when I want to hear discrete multichannel I
have normal stereo,rips of these disc that suffice in many cases .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Audiotic]

Post by Mnyb
Ok then what is "pure audio quality" :)
A blind test would count , the listener don't see or know anything about
the product under test .
Or a measurement .

I think we can trust the Germans here. They are very thorough. These
magazines are for slightly different audiences, and from different
publishers.
FWIW, so far I have almost always agreed with them re rating.



MacMini CoreDuo, 600 GB of mostly ALAC lossless music (iTunes ripped) ->
Black Transporter (analog & digital out), and Marantz DV8400 vM mod for
SACD + DVD-A, via Siltech Paris to Harman Kardon AVR 8500 & HK PA2200
Signature -> 6 x Mission 780SE & 78C & 2 x REL Strata III
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[Julf]

Post by Audiotic
I think we can trust the Germans here.

"Trust but verify"...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Wombat]

Post by Audiotic
I think we can trust the Germans here. They are very thorough. These
magazines are for slightly different audiences, and from different
publishers.
FWIW, so far I have almost always agreed with them re rating.

I am german. Better don't trust me :)
If i did read the Audio magazine the last years i didn't find it
informative in any way. Everything that sounds great in reference class
is more about feeling and harmony in their system. Nothing bloody
obvious. Also i did read some raving review of a Burmester spekaer back
several years that sounded pretty unnatural and voiced to me in reality
that left a bad aftertaste.



Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers
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[Audiotic]

The player (DAC thus) matters a lot! The Transporter outshines the SBT,
the NA11S1 is overwhelmingly better than the Transporter. My own ears
tell me that.



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
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[Julf]

My own ears tell me that.

Just like your eyes tell you that the orange dot on the right is larger
than the one on the left?

15969

Have you tried using *only* your ears?


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15969|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+


"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Audiotic]

From SBT to Transporter yes, and from Transporter to Linn (which I had

before the Marantz). Not from Linn to Marantz.



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
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[Julf]

From SBT to Transporter yes, and from Transporter to Linn (which I had
before the Marantz). Not from Linn to Marantz.

How did you do the tests (SBT vs Transporter and Transporter vs Linn)?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[Audiotic]

But it's similar to going from a Ford Fiesta to an S-Max. It's so
blindingly obvious, no blind A-B or ABX testing needed. Even as
passenger without any car-knowledge you know the difference, and even if
there's days between the two.



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
Gold, XLR where possible
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[RonM]

Post by Audiotic
But it's similar to going from a Ford Fiesta to an S-Max. It's so
blindingly obvious, no blind A-B or ABX testing needed. Even as
passenger without any car-knowledge you know the difference, and even if
there's days between the two.

Anyone who has been trained in perception research knows it's not that
simple. Sure, there's a difference between walking in workboots, walking
in high-end running shoes and walking barefoot. But less obvious
comparisons (between two brands and price points of running shoes, for
instance) are less obvious. Our CONVICTIONS shape our PERCEPTIONS.

You might be right about the comparison between the Transporter and
other devices, but I won't take it as gospel until there is some
evidence of head to head blind comparisons. Why not just try it and
report on it? Just be careful to ensure that the test is truly blind,
though.

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[Audiotic]

Btw, I can test the SBT to my pre (Marantz AV8801, no slouch as a DAC
itself, will outperform many mid-priced DACs) and via the NA-11S1. And
also that is obvious!



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
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[Audiotic]

Both, and in both cases, connected to the same pre-amp (Marantz AV8003
at that time), both via RCA (cinch)* and have a good friend switch - for
me blind. Because I wanted to be sure I was not fooling myself :-)
Of course there is the issue of sound level. Both were set to max. I
know typically a louder one may sound better. But here they were close
enough in level. Same music, same server for both.
I used these sessions also to see if we could here the difefrence
between FLAC, WAV and ALAC (no!), and 44.1/16 vs 96/24 (oh yes extremely
obvious, so much so that I started to dislike the CD quality almost),
and 96/24 vs 192/24 (if any really slightly).

*: now use XLR on my 8801, another small but worthwhile step. Yes I know
the 8801 does use a balun... But the NA and my head-amps are fully
balanced. In the future, when I'm a rich man, I'll get myself a fully
balanced AV pre...



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
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[mlsstl]

Both were set to max. I know typically a louder one may sound better.
But here they were *close enough* in level. Same music, same server for
both... (Emphasis added)

"Close enough" isn't really good enough for true blind testing. Cranking
the output knob of two different devices to max is not the same as level
matching, since one circuit will almost certainly have more gain than
the other.

Without pulling the books off the shelf, I believe it has been
demonstrated clearly that level differences of less than a dB are not
perceived as one source being louder than the other, but still have an
impact as to which sounds "better".

But, as I've noted in the past, there is a big difference between
deciding one's personal preference based on a test where certain aspects
are not well controlled versus reaching a conclusion as to which is item
is superior in a true scientific sense.


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[Audiotic]

Oh and on the topic of DSD availability... I have about 300 SACD's
ripped to ISO (actually a good friend did on a PS3). And you can also
buy them. Should be thousands in the near future.



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
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[Mnyb]

Post by Audiotic
Oh and on the topic of DSD availability... I have about 300 SACD's
ripped to ISO (actually a good friend did on a PS3). And you can also
buy them. Should be thousands in the near future.

.... But most SACD ( and DVDA ) are old analog stuff upsampled redbook
etc ?
The SACD variant of DSD is hardly any better than CD anyway . The new
dowloadable DSD files you can get is of higher quality, they are
piontless for other reasons ( but thats another topic )



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Audiotic]

And convert DSD to 88.2/24... I have versions of certain SACD in both
formats. Need to compare blindly soon :-)



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
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[Audiotic]

OK, you just shattered my world!

:-) :-) :-)



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
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[Audiotic]

OK. Bet you are right.
Enjoying music (and the beauty of the set) luckily isn't meant to be
scientific. It's enjoyment, happiness. My music, my set, my happiness
:-)



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
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[mlsstl]

Glad we agree. I have zero problem with people choosing their stereo kit
(or car, kitchen gear, golf equipment or whatever) based on whatever
criteria they wish to use. I use a tube amp in my system. I make no
claims that it sounds or measures better than other amps, but I just
happen to like tube amps based on my many years of building and
repairing them. There is just something intangible about good sound from
a tube amp that appeals to me on a basic level.

Where I get annoyed is when people start making declarations that turn
their personal preference into scientific fact and then denigrate anyone
who doesn't agree with the brilliance of their certainty. That often is
followed with rather novel, shall we say, theories to explain things. I
guess it is just a human fault that people need to justify their choices
instead of simply saying "I like this."

Science is a whole 'nother issue and it seems many in the audiophile
world is drifting further and further from the concept.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by mlsstl
Science is a whole 'nother issue and it seems many in the audiophile
world is drifting further and further from the concept.

Sometime around 1980 the high end audio discovered that the once lowly
cable could be magically transformed in a glorious cash cow, a cash cow
that never stopped giving. Of course even back then there were many
people who pointed out the so called "science" behind expensive cables
was not being used correctly, i.e. that once the proper cables were
installed in a given audio system any further cable upgrades were just
not worthwhile, but the money was just too good to ignore and so the
real science was replaced with glossy ads filled with guys in white lab
coats, pretty women and "white papers" filled with pseudo science.

Then came digital, which BY DESIGN does not behave the same as analog,
especially when it comes to cables but, as stated above, the "cable"
money was just too good to ignore and so more pseudo science was cooked
up to justify spending money on non-existent "problems".

So now we have a high end audio world that is almost completely filled
with worthless pseudo science and which has been feeding audiophiles
this nonsense for quite some time. However the money is still too good
and so the nonsense just continues to snowball, growing ever bigger with
more and more misinformation. A truly sad state of affairs.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[jimmypowder]

Post by ralphpnj
Sometime around 1980 the high end audio discovered that the once lowly
cable could be magically transformed in a glorious cash cow, a cash cow
that never stopped giving. Of course even back then there were many
people who pointed out the so called "science" behind expensive cables
was not being used correctly, i.e. that once the proper cables were
installed in a given audio system any further cable upgrades were just
not worthwhile, but the money was just too good to ignore and so the
real science was replaced with glossy ads filled with guys in white lab
coats, pretty women and "white papers" filled with pseudo science. Then
came digital, which BY DESIGN does not behave the same as analog,
especially when it comes to cables but, as stated above, the "cable"
money was just too good to ignore and so more pseudo science was cooked
up to justify spending money on non-existent "problems". So now we have
a high end audio world that is almost completely filled with worthless
pseudo science and which has been feeding audiophiles this nonsense for
quite some time. However the money is still too good and so the nonsense
just continues to snowball, growing ever bigger with more and more
misinformation. A truly sad state of affairs.

I want my Kimber digital cable !!!!!




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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
Sometime around 1980 the high end audio discovered that the once lowly
cable could be magically transformed in a glorious cash cow, a cash cow
that never stopped giving. Of course even back then there were many
people who pointed out the so called "science" behind expensive cables
was not being used correctly, i.e. that once the proper cables were
installed in a given audio system any further cable upgrades were just
not worthwhile, but the money was just too good to ignore and so the
real science was replaced with glossy ads filled with guys in white lab
coats, pretty women and "white papers" filled with pseudo science.
Then came digital, which BY DESIGN does not behave the same as analog,
especially when it comes to cables but, as stated above, the "cable"
money was just too good to ignore and so more pseudo science was cooked
up to justify spending money on non-existent "problems".
So now we have a high end audio world that is almost completely filled
with worthless pseudo science and which has been feeding audiophiles
this nonsense for quite some time. However the money is still too good
and so the nonsense just continues to snowball, growing ever bigger with
more and more misinformation. A truly sad state of affairs.

Problem is that this is a good strategy to bilk more money from the
looney's but there would be at least 10 times more audiophiles :( if not
the hobby had turned into to this cult



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Audiotic]

Maybe. But upsampled isn't doing them justice in many cases. These
really are remasteredfrom(very good) analog tapes. And boy that can
clear the air. Certainly versus the often very bad digital masters made
for the CD.
In any case, I hear the difference between a well mastered DsD and an
bad CD one. Enjoying it a lot!



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
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[Mnyb]

Post by Audiotic
Maybe. But upsampled isn't doing them justice in many cases. These
really are remasteredfrom(very good) analog tapes. And boy that can
clear the air. Certainly versus the often very bad digital masters made
for the CD.
In any case, I hear the difference between a well mastered DsD and an
bad CD one. Enjoying it a lot!

I found that too , the case for most (all) of my "hirez" discs and
downloads is the better master i,if they sound better :)

Sometimes it can be worse if they use a new loudness war master as a
template for the hirez rlease urgh .
Sometimes the good ones comes from early 90's digital tech good enough
to not interfere and record exec has not yet got in to the total
loudness war .
It's ironic that we today use better tech to make it sound worse and
sell it as 24bit 10 would probably suffice for some music out there :P



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Audiotic]

Post by Mnyb
....
It's ironic that we today use better tech to make it sound worse and
sell it as 24bit 10 would probably suffice for some music out there :P

Sooo right! Finally many people in the music industry are finally
standing up to this! I have some old CD's from the 80-ies and their
newer remaster, and the newer in many cases is almost unlistenable.
Well, that is, it's OK to hear on an iPod on the road....



Marantz NA-11S1 PCM/DSD streamer with Squeezebox Touch front-end -
Marantz UD9004 / AV8801 / MM8003 & CI Audio D-200 MkII (front only) -
Nubert NuVero & R.E.L. R-528SE - Siltech & ProLine custom made Silver &
Gold, XLR where possible
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