CSNY 192/24 files - why keep?

[RonM]

I took the plunge and bought the BluRay/PureAudio version of CSNY 1974.
These are concert recordings from the big tour of that year,
historically significant musical events. The music is encoded as 192/24
files, no doubt a reflection of Neil Young's current obsessions. I've
ripped them from the BluRay at those settings.

Of course, this is 40 years ago, and live recordings. The odds of there
being any benefit to the high-res format are very low.

The ripped files are stored on my core archive; I'm thinking there is
no real reason to put a copy id these huge files where LMS can find
them, and am thinking I might down-convert to red book standard for
actual playing purposes (I'll keep the high-res version in the archive).

Anyone think of any reason I shouldn't do this?

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Apesbrain]

Of course this is reasonable. But if you want another viewpoint read
this thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?101940-24-192-vs-24-96-files-on-Transporter

Use a good converter such as the SoX component on foobar2000. Remember,
reducing wordlength requires dither and if you decide to ABX the
originals to the down-rezzed files be sure to level-match them using
ReplayGain.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apesbrain's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=738
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[RonM]

Post by Apesbrain
Of course this is reasonable. But if you want another viewpoint read
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?101940-24-192-vs-24-96-files-on-Transporter
Use a good converter such as the SoX component on foobar2000. Remember,
reducing wordlength requires dither and if you decide to ABX the
originals to the down-rezzed files be sure to level-match them using
ReplayGain.

If I down-convert I'll use dBpoweramp, which I'm sure will do a fine
job.

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Apesbrain]

The easiest thing to do would be to go to 320 mp3s, which I suspect
would have no discernible quality difference from the hi-res originals,
but I'd feel badly doing that.

You might enjoy reading this:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test_3422.html

I'd probably convert it to 16/44 FLAC; that said I have a number of live
shows in MP3 320 or V0 or V2 that sound just fine.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apesbrain's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=738
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[RonM]

Post by Apesbrain
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test_3422.html

Yes, I've been following that.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Mike Sargent]

Post by RonM
Of course, this is 40 years ago, and live recordings. The odds of there
being any benefit to the high-res format are very low.

Why do you say that?

Mike


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Sargent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48115
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[RonM]

Post by Mike Sargent
Why do you say that?
Mike

Because the recording standards for a live recording from 40 years ago
are unlikely to have captured the level of detail that could, in theory,
benefit from the high resolution of the DVD audio.

Not to mention that there is precious little evidence that even under
optimal recording and playback conditions anyone could tell the
difference between 16/44 and 24/192 recordings.

I'm hopeful that the recording and mastering is sufficiently well done
to make the musical experience immersive (no time to try it out yet). I
don't expect the highest quality, this would be unrealistic.

I can still play the DVD Audio through my home theater setup, and can
even compare it to the 16/44 sound produced from the same gear through a
Receiver (my main listening area is run through a Transporter, which
cannot do 24/192 natively). Quite likely the Receiver will sound better
over the home theater setup, given the DAC in my Sony receiver.

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Julf]

Post by RonM
Because the recording standards for a live recording from 40 years ago
are unlikely to have captured the level of detail that could, in theory,
benefit from the high resolution of the DVD audio.

Indeed. SNR is likely to be at a vinyl-like 65 dB or so, corresponding
to 11 bits, and the analog filters and processing in a 40-year-old mixer
are probably way worse in terms of phase and temporal behaviour than
even the steepest modern low pass filter, so 44 k sample rate is more
than good enough.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[netchord]

i saw them on that tour, and would gladly pay to download them in 24/96
or 24/192. Qobuz has them in 16/44, but the only other download option
that's available is 320k mp3.

so, if you're going to throw them away, uhmmm, sell them to me?

i'm not set up to rip blu-ray.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Julf]

Post by netchord
i saw them on that tour, and would gladly pay to download them in 24/96
or 24/192. Qobuz has them in 16/44, but the only other download option
that's available is 320k mp3.

Why would 16/44 not be enough for material that is pretty much 10 or 11
bits?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[netchord]

Post by Julf
Why would 16/44 not be enough for material that is pretty much 10 or 11
bits?

you've made an assumption you have no way of verifying.

you might read some of the background on the project, which was several
years in the making/remastering.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Julf]

Post by netchord
you've made an assumption you have no way of verifying.
you might read some of the background on the project, which was several
years in the making/remastering.

What is there to verify? If it was originally recorded 40 years ago, it
would have been recorded on magnetic tape. Show me a magnetic tape
system with more than 70 dB (11.5 bits) of dynamic range. I am also
pretty familiar with the electronics used in mixers and amps of the
period - not pretty.

No amount of remastering and resampling will recreate original content
that was not there in the first place - clever processing will add stuff
that *sounds* good, but that would not be true to the original
recording.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[netchord]

Post by Julf
What is there to verify? If it was originally recorded 40 years ago, it
would have been recorded on magnetic tape. Show me a magnetic tape
system with more than 70 dB (11.5 bits) of dynamic range. I am also
pretty familiar with the electronics used in mixers and amps of the
period - not pretty.
No amount of remastering and resampling will recreate original content
that was not there in the first place - clever processing will add stuff
that *sounds* good, but that would not be true to the original
recording.

why do you care?



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Julf]

Post by netchord
why do you care?

Why do you care about why I care?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[kidstypike]

Post by Julf
Why do you care about why I care?

Yeah, I'd care to know about why he cares about why you care. :)



kidstypike
1x SB3 - 1x Boom - 1x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2x Touch - 1x piCorePlayer
------------------------------------------------------------------------
kidstypike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10436
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Julf]

Post by kidstypike
Yeah, I'd care to know about why he cares about why you care. :)

We are a caring bunch, aren't we?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[RonM]

Post by netchord
i saw them on that tour, and would gladly pay to download them in 24/96
or 24/192. Qobuz has them in 16/44, but the only other download option
that's available is 320k mp3.
so, if you're going to throw them away, uhmmm, sell them to me?
i'm not set up to rip blu-ray.

Technical note: I use the application DVD Audio Extractor
(http://www.dvdae.com/), which is a fine tool that allows pretty easy
access to the DVD Audio. To use a BluRay disc, of course, you'd need a
BluRay drive on your computer -- not expensive, and convenient to have.

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[bigblackdog]

With storage costing so little just keep the 24/192.
I have the 24/96 and sounds great. What a great version of 'on the
beach'.:o


------------------------------------------------------------------------
bigblackdog's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37719
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[netchord]

Post by bigblackdog
With storage costing so little just keep the 24/192.
I have the 24/96 and sounds great. What a great version of 'on the
beach'.:o

where'd you get a 24/96 version of CSNY 1974?



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[netchord]

Post by RonM
Technical note: I use the application DVD Audio Extractor
(http://www.dvdae.com/), which is a fine tool that allows pretty easy
access to the DVD Audio. To use a BluRay disc, of course, you'd need a
BluRay drive on your computer -- not expensive, and convenient to have.
R.

yes, but the times i need a BD drive are next to nil (ripping this disc
might be one), so not worth the trouble IMO. its just frustrating to
know it exists, e willing to pay for it, and for it not to be available.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[probedb]

Post by netchord
yes, but the times i need a BD drive are next to nil (ripping this disc
might be one), so not worth the trouble IMO. its just frustrating to
know it exists, e willing to pay for it, and for it not to be available.

You'll probably pay more for the downloadable recordings than buying a
drive and a BR.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[bigblackdog]

Ripped from blue ray with DVD audio extractor.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
bigblackdog's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=37719
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[RonM]

Post by bigblackdog
With storage costing so little just keep the 24/192.
I have the 24/96 and sounds great. What a great version of 'on the
beach'.:o

I'm running out of space on my 750 gb drive where the LMS-accessible
music lives. The 24/192 files are huge. I'd like to defer upgrading to
a TB drive as long as possible, as it's a pain to do on the FitPC2, my
dedicated server. As the Fit is very low power, and is on 24/7, I'd
prefer not to go external.

Post by bigblackdog
Ripped from blue ray with DVD audio extractor.

For the benefit of others who don't know the app, DVD AE allows you to
specify the output format and sample rate, among other things. Since
24/192 is the native resolution on the BluRay, I ripped to that, since I
have more confidence in apps like dBp for the down conversion than I do
for DVD AE. Although I'm pretty sure the latter would do a fine job,
probably just as good.

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Mnyb]

In that case just make a 16/44.1 version . The intrisinic sq of such an
old recording is most likely fully resolved by 16/44.1 .

But you may enjouy the better mastering of this version , if that is the
case :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[RonM]

Post by Mnyb
In that case just make a 16/44.1 version . The intrisinic sq of such an
old recording is most likely fully resolved by 16/44.1 .
But you may enjouy the better mastering of this version , if that is the
case :)

This is exactly what I was proposing to do, in the original post.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[RonM]

Post by netchord
yes, but the times i need a BD drive are next to nil (ripping this disc
might be one), so not worth the trouble IMO. its just frustrating to
know it exists, e willing to pay for it, and for it not to be available.

Of course, a BR drive could replace an existing CD/DVD drive, as it will
handle all formats.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Mike Sargent]

Post by RonM
Because the recording standards for a live recording from 40 years ago
are unlikely to have captured the level of detail that could, in theory,
benefit from the high resolution of the DVD audio.

That's the part I don't know that I agree with. I presume they dug up
the original master tapes from the tour dates. If those have been stored
well, and were originally recorded well (good tape, clean heads,
engineers with some experience, etc.) there is no reason to assume that
they can't recover audio in excess of 44.1 kHz/16-bit.

Post by RonM
Not to mention that there is precious little evidence that even under
optimal recording and playback conditions anyone could tell the
difference between 16/44 and 24/192 recordings.

That I do agree with (I have spent a lot on high res recordings over the
years, but I'm not sure I wouldn't have been just as well off with the
CD). They can release recordings with audio beyond the capabilities of a
CD, but it may be that no one can actually hear the difference.

And yes, I did buy CSNY 1974 and ripped the high res tracks. :-)

Mike


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Sargent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48115
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[RonM]

Post by Mike Sargent
That's the part I don't know that I agree with. I presume they dug up
the original master tapes from the tour dates. If those have been stored
well, and were originally recorded well (good tape, clean heads,
engineers with some experience, etc.) there is no reason to assume that
they can't recover audio in excess of 44.1 kHz/16-bit.
What is there to verify? If it was originally recorded 40 years ago, it
would have been recorded on magnetic tape. Show me a magnetic tape
system with more than 70 dB (11.5 bits) of dynamic range. I am also
pretty familiar with the electronics used in mixers and amps of the
period - not pretty.
No amount of remastering and resampling will recreate original content
that was not there in the first place - clever processing will add stuff
that *sounds* good, but that would not be true to the original
recording.

LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949

[Archimago]

Just wanted to say that these days, I have zero concern about
downsampling stuff. I know hard drive space is cheap but I just don't
like to waste space like that. I have yet to find many 24/192 albums
that actually look like there's anything other than (usually low level)
noise above 40kHz. Assuming one cares about >40kHz!

In fact, old albums often have little above 20kHz... Recently I bought
the HDTracks 24/96 version of James Brown's -20 All-Time Greatest Hits!-
and realized there was essentially nothing but noise >20kHz. BAM... It
goes into my music server as 24/48. No problem. In fact, for that album
the noise floor was high so 16-bit would have been just fine. I didn't
bother because I didn't feel like running it through iZotope again :-).



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=101949