Discussion:
MUSINGS: High-Resolution Audio Expectations...
Archimago
2014-03-01 17:40:11 UTC
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Alright guys... Time to just put this out there now that it has been a
few years since relative widespread availability of high-resolution
audio in the form of HDTracks and such. The recent Beck album is an
important example of concerns around the wastefulness of these high
bitrate files being sold. But IMO, likely of no audible benefit at all.

'HRA Expectations'
(http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/03/musings-high-resolution-audio.html)



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Daverz
2014-03-02 02:30:04 UTC
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I have to say, I don't trust results with headphones, because of the way
they tend to collapse spatial information. But then all that matters is
the results on the equipment that you'll use for your own listening.

So how does one do a proper ABX on a squeezebox? What I've done before
is create a playlist of clips, hit random play, flip my ipad over, and
start taking notes. Then the notes can be compared to the actual
playlist order. But I don't think that qualifies as ABX.

I would also want to test 24/44 against 16/44. I have an impression
that the bit depth matters, but it's untested.


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Julf
2014-03-02 11:22:16 UTC
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Post by Daverz
I would also want to test 24/44 against 16/44. I have an impression
that the bit depth matters, but it's untested.
There has been quite a lot of scientific studies and tests. Bit depth
only affects dynamic range/SNR, and 16 bits already give more than any
source material needs.

You need more than 16 bits temporarily for processing headroom in DSP,
and it makes recording easier if you have the headroom, but once
processed, 16 bits is more than enough for any music.



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edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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Mnyb
2014-03-02 13:06:18 UTC
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Post by Daverz
I have to say, I don't trust results with headphones, because of the way
they tend to collapse spatial information. But then all that matters is
the results on the equipment that you'll use for your own listening.
So how does one do a proper ABX on a squeezebox? What I've done before
is create a playlist of clips, hit random play, flip my ipad over, and
start taking notes. Then the notes can be compared to the actual
playlist order. But I don't think that qualifies as ABX.
I would also want to test 24/44 against 16/44. I have an impression
that the bit depth matters, but it's untested.
I've modified this schema a bit i made a folder with 10 of each version
i want to compare and make sure the tagging is identical so it would not
be obvius which version is what and press shuffle .

Ive done the 24/96 vs 16/44.1 comparision a lot of times = no
difference

Note this !* you have to make the low rez versions yourself, the CD
layer or alternate versions of the same songs are very rarely from the
same master then you would not compare the same thing*
I would not even trust the different version on HD tracks to really be
the same .



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satkinsn
2014-03-02 14:58:31 UTC
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What a fine read! Inspirational line: " I would gladly listen to an MP3
192kbps of a well recorded/mastered album than a poor DSD128 or 24/192."
It's taking some time, but I think the broader audio community is
starting to change its mind about what's most important.

s.


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ralphpnj
2014-03-02 17:40:33 UTC
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Post by satkinsn
What a fine read! Inspirational line: " I would gladly listen to an MP3
192kbps of a well recorded/mastered album than a poor DSD128 or 24/192."
It's taking some time, but I think the broader audio community is
starting to change its mind about what's most important.
s.
You must be joking!

If you mean by "the broader audio community" everyone EXCEPT audiophiles
then perhaps there may be a very small kernel of truth buried somewhere
but as far as I can tell things shake out like this:

1) In the broader non-audiophile audio community almost NO ONE cares
about sound quality, as in whatever iTunes sells is good enough and
everything iTunes sells is worthless from an audio perspective.

2) The audiophile community gets their marching orders from the various
high end audio publications, whether in print or online, and the various
high end audio publications get their marching orders from their
advertisers and their advertisers are in business to sell things. Right
now the manufacturers of DACs want people to buy new DACs and so the
need for DSD capable DACs is being drummed into audiophile's gullible
little brains.

The small kernel of truth I mentioned exists because in spite of the
above there are a very small handful of artists, producers, recording
engineers, record labels, vendors, etc. who actually care about sound
quality and NOT ripping people off. Basically whenever I come a well
recorded, great sounding recording I consider it just a very lucky
fluke.



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Archimago
2014-03-03 05:54:47 UTC
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Post by ralphpnj
...
1) In the broader non-audiophile audio community almost NO ONE cares
about sound quality, as in whatever iTunes sells is good enough and
everything iTunes sells is worthless from an audio perspective.
2) The audiophile community gets their marching orders from the various
high end audio publications, whether in print or online, and the various
high end audio publications get their marching orders from their
advertisers and their advertisers are in business to sell things. Right
now the manufacturers of DACs want people to buy new DACs and so the
need for DSD capable DACs is being drummed into audiophile's gullible
little brains.
...
Gee Ralph, why don't you tell us how you really feel? ;)

While I agree that the masses interested in pop/rock probably do not
care (much) about the sound quality, I do hold hope that in time this
will change. I agree with one of the comments on my blog post that the
proliferation of better headphones could make inroads into this. I was
talking to a rap artist today (of all people!) who was well aware of
dynamic range compression and thinking about how it affects his music!
Of course, for his kind of music/genre (think angry Eminem), some
compression is needed otherwise it'd sound inappropriately "pleasant"
:mad:.

Although topics like the Loudness Wars may not have made it into the
lingo of the masses yet, it's certainly common knowledge among many
audiophiles / web sites and music lover forums like the Steve Hoffman
forum. Heck, even Neil Young's comments could help make a dent though I
believe ultimately he is misguided and this will be made plain for all
to see if Pono comes out with no evidence of better mastering.

In the long term, I feel the market will figure this out. The "second
coming" of DSD will fail and "High-Resolution Audio" will not go
anywhere either. For all the marketing expense and BS, the "high-end"
will continue to falter in sales because innovation is essentially dead
and quality has maxed out while providing no real value. In the process
the general public just -might- end up "getting it".

Realize that this could be really good for us audiophiles. Hopefully
you'll run into more "lucky flukes" as the drive for high-resolution
provides more tools and investment dollars for the
artists/producers/engineers who care about sound quality. This is how I
feel about multichannel. The home theater push in the early 2000's gave
rise to some good multichannel album remastering in DVD-A and SACD
formats. Good luck ever seeing a popular album like -Random Access
Memories- get officially remixed into multichannel these days (I think
it could sound amazing)! Even though the masses used their crappy
satellite speakers and could never fully experience it, I am happily
sitting around in 2014 enjoying the fruits of the "multichannel push"
with (almost) full-range 5.1 channels.

All IMHO of course.

Keep the faith, friend.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
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Mnyb
2014-03-03 06:44:22 UTC
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A good idea is to try to source some material that is fully 24/192 or
some such to begin with .

A modern as good as it gets digital recording .

A do think headphones are very good at this especially closed ones SN
ratio and distortion is very low .

Speakers distort a lot and the room interaction is not always favourable
, unless you have real acoustic treatment .
As for spatial cues ? who knows , speakers are multiway with multiple
drivers ,maybe a couple of quad ESL. 63 or what they are named to day
could preserve them better than phones ?

However I did my A/B test with my hifi and speakers for two reasons .

My sound card in the PC is not hifi ,here I could use phones.

Most if my listening is with my hifi rig anyway and it would be
interesting to know what I could expect from it .

I did some test with very quit signals some years ago and my hifi has no
problem resolving signals -112dB .
in practice this kind of test is not valid as it uses very high volume ,
at normal listening levels such signal would not be heard.
That is another interesting thing you can do .
Sit in your normal listening position set the hifi to your normal
listening volume .play back some signals of diminishing volume and take
note when you can't hear them anymoore , you will not get to -96dB
unless your normal listening volume is painfully high :)



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Daverz
2014-03-03 18:34:51 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
As for spatial cues ? who knows ,
People with decent speakers. ;)

You also need some good recordings of acoustic music.


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Mnyb
2014-03-03 19:09:07 UTC
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Post by Daverz
People with decent speakers. ;)
You also need some good recordings of acoustic music.
;) ok -difference- in said spatial cues under real conditions.....

Btw do sugest more specici test tracks .



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Daverz
2014-03-03 19:27:40 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
;) ok -difference- in said spatial cues under real conditions.....
Btw do sugest more specific test tracks .
Well, nearly anything on Lyrita. Ken Wilkinson was the engineer on many
of these. I use Moeran's -Sinfonietta- for auditioning gear. Boult's
Bax disc is also very good. These are analog recordings, so they are up
to technical standards of modern recordings, but it's the miking that
matters most, I think.

Another recording with an uncanny sense of space is Schubert: -Rosamunde
Incidental Music- - Munchinger/VPO on Decca. Again, analog from the
70s. I'll have to think about some more modern recordings.

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Rosamunde-Karl-Munchinger/dp/B000060MDY
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005UW3Y


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Mnyb
2014-03-03 19:49:36 UTC
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Post by Daverz
Well, nearly anything on Lyrita. Ken Wilkinson was the engineer on many
of these. I use Moeran's -Sinfonietta- for auditioning gear. Boult's
Bax disc is also very good. These are analog recordings, so they are up
to technical standards of modern recordings, but it's the miking that
matters most, I think.
Another recording with an uncanny sense of space is Schubert: -Rosamunde
Incidental Music- - Munchinger/VPO on Decca. Again, analog from the
70s. I'll have to think about some more modern recordings.
http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Rosamunde-Karl-Munchinger/dp/B000060MDY
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005UW3Y
These are probably musically excellent choices will investigate on
musical merit , which is what all this is about in the end.
I do like that whatever we discuss one can atleast get some interesting
musical choices out of it .

What I meant with modern recordings is that the older stuff may not have
any or any significant information that could not fit within 16/44.1
thus making a hirez vs reedbook comparison a bit futile . Which was the
subject of this tread ?



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Daverz
2014-03-03 20:22:51 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
What I meant with modern recordings is that the older stuff may not have
any or any significant information that could not fit within 16/44.1
thus making a hirez vs reedbook comparison a bit futile . Which was the
subject of this tread ?
My hi-rez collection is still pretty small. I'll see if I can find
something that's a good demo.


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Recoveryone
2014-03-03 22:05:26 UTC
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Stevie Wonder, Songs in the key of Life, from HDTracks



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ralphpnj
2014-03-03 22:15:53 UTC
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Other high resolution releases worth checking out are "Workingman's
Dead" and "American Beauty" by The Grateful Dead.

What makes these two releases interesting is that they both available in
two distinctly different remasterings. I'm not sure which remaster is
which but one remaster features the original mix, i.e. the same mix
heard on the original LP release and the other remaster is from a remix
done by Grateful Dead drummer Mickey Hart back in 2001. More detailed
information can be found here:

http://www.dead.net/features/blairs-golden-road-blog/blair-s-golden-road-blog-new-twists-three-classic-albums



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Daverz
2014-03-04 02:01:28 UTC
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Post by Recoveryone
Stevie Wonder, Songs in the key of Life, from HDTracks
I knew I had this somewhere in infinite res*, but I really had to dig.
Finally found it in a box at the bottom of a stack. Lps look like hell
but sound very good.

*That's a joke, digital kids.


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Mnyb
2014-03-04 02:06:26 UTC
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Post by Daverz
My hi-rez collection is still pretty small. I'll see if I can find
something that's a good demo.
Ditto that's symptomatic for the whole venture , I do have close to 255
albums a large portion AIX + some more .

I'll see if I can do a better pick in that pile , I did use acoustic
stuff but not classical in my latest try with this .

I'll love some of my 5.1 DVDA's my hifi has a DVDA player that let's the
audio leave the player as 6 discrete digital channels before hitting my
processor , the DAC's are in my speakers so the final "loss" to mere
21bit resolution takes place after all eq DRC and speaker xover .

Discrete surround with uncompressed 6 ch audio is amazing , but that
part of hirez that made the actual *real* difference seems dead back to
the usual audiophile buzzworld :( (AC3 or DTS is lossy if anyone did not
know ).
Hmm maybe blueray releases can come to a rescue .
Or maybe CSOS/Squeezelite can bring 6-8 ch FLAC to the table via hdmi ?

My amateurish ab testing have been with stereo material that's what I
was able to setup practically .



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satkinsn
2014-03-03 12:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ralphpnj
You must be joking!
If you mean by "the broader audio community" everyone EXCEPT audiophiles
then perhaps there may be a very small kernel of truth buried somewhere
1) In the broader non-audiophile audio community almost NO ONE cares
about sound quality, as in whatever iTunes sells is good enough and
everything iTunes sells is worthless from an audio perspective.
2) The audiophile community gets their marching orders from the various
high end audio publications, whether in print or online, and the various
high end audio publications get their marching orders from their
advertisers and their advertisers are in business to sell things. Right
now the manufacturers of DACs want people to buy new DACs and so the
need for DSD capable DACs is being drummed into audiophile's gullible
little brains.
The small kernel of truth I mentioned exists because in spite of the
above there are a very small handful of artists, producers, recording
engineers, record labels, vendors, etc. who actually care about sound
quality and NOT ripping people off. Basically whenever I come across a
well recorded, great sounding recording I consider it just a very lucky
fluke.
I guess my very unscientific take is that I'm reading more pushback in
the forums I frequent, more people calling b-s on various unsupported
claims. I'm not saying the argument's been won, or close to it, but it's
at least easier to get a dissenting opinon these days, with Arch's blog
posts being a fine example.

Second, a question: for the last decade I've bought cds and ripped to
lossless. This season, I did my first extensive blind a/b/x testing and
realized I could tell absolutely no difference between my rips and
iTunes. I've switched over the last few months to buying audio from
iTunes because a.) it's cheaper and b.) it's one less thing I have to
keep track of/store in my home. You're not a fan of iTunes, apparently.
What am I missing? (You and I tend to listen to the same stuff, I
believe.)

s.


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ralphpnj
2014-03-03 13:39:39 UTC
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Post by satkinsn
I guess my very unscientific take is that I'm reading more pushback in
the forums I frequent, more people calling b-s on various unsupported
claims. I'm not saying the argument's been won, or close to it, but it's
at least easier to get a dissenting opinon these days, with Arch's blog
posts being a fine example.
Second, a question: for the last decade I've bought cds and ripped to
lossless. This season, I did my first extensive blind a/b/x testing and
realized I could tell absolutely no difference between my rips and
iTunes. I've switched over the last few months to buying audio from
iTunes because a.) it's cheaper and b.) it's one less thing I have to
keep track of/store in my home. You're not a fan of iTunes, apparently.
What am I missing? (You and I tend to listen to the same stuff, I
believe.)
s.
I agree that on the surface there appears to be the start of movement
towards better sound, especially among the younger, headphone wearing
crowd. But look more closely and what do you see? Lots of Beats
headphones and Beats headphones are most definitely not about better
sound but rather all about BASS BOOST. So in reality there is no
movement towards better sound but rather a movement towards sound
reproduced in a very distorted and unmusical way.

As for iTunes and lossy downloads I just refuse to pay for an lossy mp3
or acc file, period. With lossy compression the file is forever "locked"
in that format since transcoding or converting the file into another
format will only result in more data loss. With lossless compression,
such as flac or alac, the file can converted to any other audio codec
with no loss in audio quality. But hey it's your time and money.



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darrenyeats
2014-03-03 16:25:30 UTC
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With lossless compression, such as flac or alac, the file can converted
to any other audio codec with no loss in audio quality.
Agreed.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
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ralphpnj
2014-03-03 16:34:11 UTC
Permalink
With lossless compression, such as flac or alac, the file can converted
to any other audio codec with no loss in audio quality.
Agreed.
I forgot to mention that according to the last audiophile rumors the
conversion between one lossless format to another, e.g. from flac to
wav, MUST NEVER be done "on the fly" since this will have a negative
impact on the sound as the puny processor in the computer struggles to
convert the file and stream at the same time. Really, this is what is
being said by many of the supposed digital audio experts in the high end
audio press. CLOWNS!



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& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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satkinsn
2014-03-03 17:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, I agree the huge disadvantage of aac and mp3 is the fact that
you're stuck with what you're stuck with, and transcoding is a no-no.
OTOH, I'm trying hard to spend more time enjoying what I have and less
planning a future of listening that may never get here - like switching
off iPods to some portable player that doesn't support aac, or having
computer software that doesn't. It's a bit of a roll of the dice, but my
compensation is the hours I get now listening.

Obviously, there are a lot of other ways to look at this.

s.


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ralphpnj
2014-03-03 17:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by satkinsn
Yeah, I agree the huge disadvantage of aac and mp3 is the fact that
you're stuck with what you're stuck with, and transcoding is a no-no.
OTOH, I'm trying hard to spend more time enjoying what I have and less
planning a future of listening that may never get here - like switching
off iPods to some portable player that doesn't support aac, or having
computer software that doesn't. It's a bit of a roll of the dice, but my
compensation is the hours I get now listening.
Obviously, there are a lot of other ways to look at this.
s.
As I stated, it's your time and money :)

Just keep in mind that the MAJOR factor guiding iTunes, acc, mp3 and all
other lossy codecs is convenience and not sound quality. So if improving
sound quality means less convenience then it is not going to happen.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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Archimago
2014-03-03 04:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daverz
I have to say, I don't trust results with headphones, because of the way
they tend to collapse spatial information. But then all that matters is
the results on the equipment that you'll use for your own listening.
That's an interesting common sentiment I hear especially with the folks
on Audio Asylum and with the dyed-in-the-wool audiophiles.

True, the presentation is different, but I've always been much more
successful picking out details with a good pair of headphones. Without
the room effects to contend with, consistency of sound is also
maintained when I bring my pair of headphones over to hear a friend's
DAC for example.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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Daverz
2014-03-03 05:40:05 UTC
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I've always been much more successful picking out details with a good
pair of headphones.
One will certainly pick up a lot of details on headphones, but I think
you lose some other kinds of audible detail because of the way
headphones interact (or don't) with the pinna.


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