[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Dilemma

[Pascal Hibon]

Last week I was at a friend’s house and while I was there he played a
few vinyl records. While we were chatting, I mentioned that would love
to compare an MC cart to my current MM cart, which is a Shure M97xE. I
like the Shure but my only complaint is that it lacks a bit of
resolution in the high frequency range. Apart from that I always
wondered about the differences between MM and MC carts in general. Do
they sound really that much different / better?
My friend had an MC cart which he wasn’t using anymore and he lent it to
me for comparison. This is a Benz Ace high output cart so it would work
with my MM phono pre-amp.

Boy oh boy, what a difference! The Ace is brighter than the Shure and
the high frequencies sound very nice and clean. Okay I know the Shure
costs about 100 Euro while the Benz costs about 1000 Euro. That is about
900 Euro difference; the difference in sound between the two is not 900
Euro (I kept telling myself). But Since then I’ve listening to a lot of
my vinyl records again. I’m getting more and more comfortable with the
heavy price tag of the Benz. I don’t know if that is a good thing…
It is still a lot of money to slam on a turntable and in the end it is
just a cartridge. I’m wondering if anyone here is having or had the same
experience on the topic? If I would get an MC cart and a cheaper one
than the Ace would I still love the sound so much? One thing is for
sure, the Shure won’t cut it anymore…
Love to hear your experiences.



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[Mnyb]

When I remeber my LP days it thought the low level MC cart sounded even
better , bu then you need a separate MC amp before the MM input or a
phone stage that handles MC directly , something that you select both
gain and I put impedance .
Cart also needs matching to the tonearm I mostly used Ortofon and Xyz
carts back then .

Problem is that that they all are are expensive and a wear out and need
replacement often :/

Maybe you rip the vinyl while having the Benz in your rig :) it will
preserve the sound perfectly ( or slightly better as there will be no
acoustical feedback )



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Pascal Hibon]

Post by Mnyb
When I remeber my LP days it thought the low level MC cart sounded even
better , bu then you need a separate MC amp before the MM input or a
phone stage that handles MC directly , something that you select both
gain and I put impedance .

Yes, I've read about that topic as well. While many claim that the low
output is even better I have some doubts about it because there are a
few other things that come into play. A low output MC cart needs a lot
higher amplification. Higher amplification means more noise; one noise
component coming from the higher gain of the amplifier; but also a
second component coming from the cart combined with the high gain (it
picks up unwanted things who get amplified as well).

I had a project on the stack to built my own phono stage. That stage has
an MC and MM input.
I guess I need to move up this project and start it now.

Post by Mnyb
Problem is that that they all are are expensive and a wear out and need
replacement often :/

Yes, that's another thing that holds me back with these expensive MC
carts.
On the other hand, companies such as Benz Micro and Ortofon (and a few
other) offer a replacement program, usually around 20% of the purchase
price, to replace the cart with a refurbished one (new tip and
cantilever).
The only down side about that is that you buy into a brand.

Post by Mnyb
Maybe you rip the vinyl while having the Benz in your rig :) it will
preserve the sound perfectly ( or slightly better as there will be no
acoustical feedback )

I've though about that too.
Now that I still have my friend's cart I think I'll rip one of my albums
to see how that works out.

I must honestly say that I was surprised by the fact that vinyl could
sound this good. It still is not CD quality but it is very good.
And it adds something to the sound and the experience that CD doesn't
have. I can't put it into words but there is certainly something to say
for vinyl.



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[Mnyb]

I think thats the actual ritual about spining those discs, I’m little
sadened that i sold all my vinyls 20 years ago :-/

It sometimes think about. create a retro hifi system of some kind, just
for pure nostalgia .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Pascal Hibon]

Post by Mnyb
I think thats the actual ritual about spining those discs, I’m little
sadened that i sold all my vinyls 20 years ago :-/
It sometimes think about. create a retro hifi system of some kind, just
for pure nostalgia .

I never ditched my vinyl. I don't think I could. It is something I grew
up with and still cherish.
The artwork, the smell of the record, the fact you need to turn the
record after about 20 min, etc is all part of the ritual.



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[pablolie]

Post by Mnyb
I think thats the actual ritual about spining those discs, I’m little
sadened that i sold all my vinyls 20 years ago :-/
It sometimes think about. create a retro hifi system of some kind, just
for pure nostalgia .

I don't miss vinyl one bit, even though I still have my albums and my
turntable in storage. I haven't used them for over 15 years, so it's
time to let them go... :-)

I sold my Accuphase CD player to someone not long ago. All that remains
is a ripping CD player on my computer and dbPoweramp, because I still
buy CDs. And then gift them.



...pablo
Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Workstation 14 Pro) running Ubuntu
16.04 + LMS 7.9
System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval
Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem
Element Fire
Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem
DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub
Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado
PS500e/Shure 1540
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[Grumpy Bob]

It occurs to me that the OP might find answers to his cartridge query
over at a forum like that at 'vinylengine'
(https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/index.php).

For my part, I enjoy playing vinyl - but out of convenience most of my
listening is done from digital, CDs or vinyl ripped to my NAS, or just
bought as downloads. Re enjoying vinyl, maybe that's an age/nostalgia
thing, but it's also an aesthetic thing to do with the packaging and the
requirement to look after the artist's product.

Robert



*Home: *Raspberry Pi 3/piCoreplayer/LMS7.9.1 with files on QNAP TS-239
Touch > DacMagic 100 > Naim Audio Nait 3 > Mission 752 (plus Rega
Planar 3 > Rega Fono Mini; Naim CD3)
PiCorePlayer(Pi2) with IQAudIO DAC+>Sennheisers
2 x Squeezebox Radios, 1 X Squeezebox 3 (retired), spare
Pi2/piCorePlayer
*Office:* LMS7.9 running on WiFi MyPassport drive >
piCorePlayer(PiB)/HiFiBerryDAC > Amptastic Amplifier
SqueezePad, iPeng as controllers

last.fm/user/GrumpyBob
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[Golden Earring]

Post by Mnyb
I think thats the actual ritual about spining those discs, I’m little
sadened that i sold all my vinyls 20 years ago :-/
It sometimes think about. create a retro hifi system of some kind, just
for pure nostalgia .

Hi Mnyb!

I am already pursuing this very course: I have the bits, I just need to
do some serious woodwork, assemble & adjust it all & plug it in: I'll
keep you posted...

Dave :cool:


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[Martin N]

Hello,

Post by Mnyb
When I remeber my LP days it thought the low level MC cart sounded even
better , bu then you need a separate MC amp before the MM input or a
phone stage that handles MC directly , something that you select both
gain and I put impedance .
Cart also needs matching to the tonearm I mostly used Ortofon and Xyz
carts back then .
Problem is that that they all are are expensive and a wear out and need
replacement often :/

Yeah i have never really played vin-yl -without
recording it at the same time :)

Post by Mnyb
Maybe you rip the vinyl while having the Benz in your rig :) it will
preserve the sound perfectly ( or slightly better as there will be no
acoustical feedback )

The question is how to do this?

Using an analogue input on a PC and audacity i
dont think will turn out sounding very good.
I did use minidisc being 24bit although 48khz and lossy as well.

Martin

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to
purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706–1790)

[Mnyb]

We have several treads on recording vinyl you do need a riaa stage or
preamp or similar , not just the analog in on your computer.
Maybe a better sound card if inputs on laptops reached new bottom levels
. But any decent soundcards fidelity far exceeds vinyl .

On topic it was some fun when I was young with 400 LP’s . It would
surely be unmanageable with my 4500 disc digital collection.:D here the
server excels

But putting on a vinyl or inserting any old fashion media means you are
committed .

I’d sometimes tend to zap truogh my music and change my mind



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Martin N]

Hello,

Post by Mnyb
We have several treads on recording vinyl you do need a riaa stage or
preamp or similar , not just the analog in on your computer.

Yes, i forgot about that and have a creek obh8 going into my amplifier

Post by Mnyb
Maybe a better sound card if inputs on laptops reached new bottom levels
. But any decent soundcards fidelity far exceeds vinyl .

Maybe in specs but what about noise particularly with vinyl being in the more
vulnerable analogue format.
I think the best way to go would be to get the analogue into digital before it
enters the hostile environment of a PC with it radio frequency interference.

Post by Mnyb
On topic it was some fun when I was young with 400 LP's . It would
surely be unmanageable with my 4500 disc digital collection.:D here the
server excels
But putting on a vinyl or inserting any old fashion media means you are
committed .
I'd sometimes tend to zap truogh my music and change my mind

I still listen to albums at a time on my DAP and never use shuffle.

Martin

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of
men, I will find something in them which will hang him."
- so said Cardinal Richelieu:

[Pascal Hibon]

Well since I started this thread I thought I needed to post an update.
During my quest for a new cart I finally ended up with a shortlist of
carts. This shortlist was based upon several sources such as friends
opinions, reviews, reading various sources on the internet, etc. The
shortlist was composed out of these carts:

* Denon 103r (MC cart)
* Ortofon 2M Black (MM cart)
* Audio Technica AT-OC9/III (MC cart)

I contacted a few dealers and finally made an appointment with a dealer
who had two of the three on demo (Ortofon and AT).
This listening session let me to buy the AT-OC9/III cart. I found that
voice have more "body" with the AT compared to the 2M. The AT produces
tighter bass and bass is well controlled. I also feel that the AT
produced better detail in the high frequencies compared to the Benz Ace.

So I'm very happy with this purchase. It costs about half of the Benz
and produces at least equally good quality sound.
If anyone is looking to buy a new cart I can highly recommend the
AT-OC9/III.



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[Daverz]

Post by Pascal Hibon
Well since I started this thread I thought I needed to post an update.
During my quest for a new cart I finally ended up with a shortlist of
carts. This shortlist was based upon several sources such as friends
opinions, reviews, reading various sources on the internet, etc. The
* Audio Technica AT-OC9/III (MC cart)

I used an AT33PTG for years and loved it. Your post inspired me to
install an AT150MLX MM cart I've had lying around for years (I didn't
like it with my old phono pre). Without threaded holes it was a bitch
to install, but it sounds great. Those who can't do MCs and want a
replaceable stylus should check it out.


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[Mnyb]

Enjoy :) i actually never heard an AT cartridge , for some reason they
never where that common among my friends and the dealers i visited back
then.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Pascal Hibon]

Post by Mnyb
Enjoy :) i actually never heard an AT cartridge , for some reason they
never where that common among my friends and the dealers i visited back
then.

Thanks Mnyb.
Even today, the AT's seem to be quite popular. During my vinyl days I
have mostly used Shure carts and one Ortofon. This quest really opened
by my eyes in terms of cart manufactures.



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[Daverz]

Yes, it's true that replacement styli are often half the original cost
of the cartridge. However, I don't think I've ever gotten 50% off on
any trade-in deal, and you don't have to send the cartridge back for
re-tipping.

Hate to sound fickle, but I've already taken the 150 off. Fast, clean
midrange and bass, good tracker, but also bright and can't really
portray massed strings attractively.


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[Pascal Hibon]

Post by Daverz
I used an AT33PTG for years and loved it. Your post inspired me to
install an AT150MLX MM cart I've had lying around for years (I didn't
like it with my old phono pre). Without threaded holes it was a bitch
to install, but it sounds great. Those who can't do MCs and want a
replaceable stylus should check it out.

The AT150MLX is discontinued. It has a boron cantilever and that is a
good sign for SQ (not an expert here but that seems to be consistent
during my research). The specs look great too. I'm sure it will sound
great as well. AT has a lot of great carts who are discontinued. Shame
really.
A replaceable stylus is not always a "plus". For example: the stylus
replacement of the 2M Black cost almost as much as the complete cart.
Many MC cart manufactures have a replacement program for their carts for
worn / broken styluses. In such cases, having a replaceable stylus is
not always a pro.

The Shure drove me away from MM but I guess this is a false feeling. I
heard the 2M Black and that one is in a complete different league than
the M97xE too. Of coarse it costs about 5 times more than the Shure...
In all honesty, the Shure offers good value for the money but there are
certainly better carts to be found in that price range.
The OC9 is more expensive than the Sure but it offers way better sound
quality.

During my quest I found that Nagaoka is also a brand to take a look at.
Their MP-150 gets excellent reviews and I was temped by an MP-200 but
couldn't find it on demo.
Both are MM carts as well.



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[drmatt]

Just have an old LP next to the deck, get it out the sleeve and drop the
needle on it. While having the deck wired to start playing the flac
files on your squeezebox in the background...


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
Debian+LMS 7.9.0
Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..
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[ralphpnj]

Why not compare the sound of an LP played using the Benz to the sound of
flac files (both standard resolution and high resolution - if available)
of the same recording streamed via your Touch. The flac files should be
sourced from either a CD rip or a digital download, in other words not
from a vinyl rip.

That is really the true comparison because if the analog LP doesn't
sound better than digital streaming what's the point of spending money
on a cartridge.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Pascal Hibon]

Post by ralphpnj
Why not compare the sound of an LP played using the Benz to the sound of
flac files (both standard resolution and high resolution - if available)
of the same recording streamed via your Touch. The flac files should be
sourced from either a CD rip or a digital download, in other words not
from a vinyl rip.
That is really the true comparison because if the analog LP doesn't
sound better than digital streaming what's the point of spending money
on a cartridge.

Sure but that is not an equal competition. CD has the advantage; it is
the better format. And when done right should sound better no matter
what cart one uses.
I'm just amazed how good that cart plays. It is very close to CD
quality.

Playing vinyl once and a while is more than just the SQ alone. Mnyb
described it correctly: it's also about the ritual.
The Benz cart adds a dimension to the experience since it makes my
records sound a whole lot better that the Sure does. (oeps, now I start
to sound like an audiophile...)



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Pascal Hibon
Sure but that is not an equal competition. CD has the advantage; it is
the better format. And when done right should sound better no matter
what cart one uses.
I'm just amazed how good that cart plays. It is very close to CD
quality.
Playing vinyl once and a while is more than just the SQ alone. Mnyb
described it correctly: it's also about the ritual.
The Benz cart adds a dimension to the experience since it makes my
records sound a whole lot better that the Sure does. (oeps, now I start
to sound like an audiophile...)

Do you mean the ritual of having to put all those LPs away after you
played them? Or having to clean the LPs before you play them? Of having
to listen a track you don't enjoy because you are too lazy to get up and
move the tonearm past the track? Or not being able to save that
wonderful mix of tracks into a playlist?

I could go on but what's the point? I lived with vinyl for many years
and while I still believe that vinyl can sound very, very good it is
just too damn inconvenient. In other words, "ritual" is just another way
to say "inconvenient".

When I listen to music I want ease of playing the music and not rituals.
Rituals are for religion and that is something I avoid at all costs.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
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Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
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[Pascal Hibon]

Post by ralphpnj
Do you mean the ritual of having to put all those LPs away after you
played them? Or having to clean the LPs before you play them? Of having
to listen a track you don't enjoy because you are too lazy to get up and
move the tonearm past the track? Or not being able to save that
wonderful mix of tracks into a playlist?
I could go on but what's the point? I lived with vinyl for many years
and while I still believe that vinyl can sound very, very good it is
just too damn inconvenient. In other words, "ritual" is just another way
to say "inconvenient".
When I listen to music I want ease of playing the music and not rituals.
Rituals are for religion and that is something I avoid at all costs.

I understand what you mean and most of the time I tend to agree with the
above.
There are just other times when it is nice to "slow down". These are the
moments I could enjoy all of the above :-)
And there is a good thing about that: yes one tends to listen to the
complete album and not just press the skip forward button. That also
made me rediscover music too. So you see, there is something positive in
everything!



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
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[kidstypike]

Post by ralphpnj
Do you mean the ritual of having to put all those LPs away after you
played them? Or having to clean the LPs before you play them? Of having
to listen a track you don't enjoy because you are too lazy to get up and
move the tonearm past the track? Or not being able to save that
wonderful mix of tracks into a playlist?
I could go on but what's the point? I lived with vinyl for many years
and while I still believe that vinyl can sound very, very good it is
just too damn inconvenient. In other words, "ritual" is just another way
to say "inconvenient".
When I listen to music I want ease of playing the music and not rituals.
Rituals are for religion and that is something I avoid at all costs.

You didn't mention this must have :( :)

24731


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|Filename: dust-bug1.jpg |
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*Study/Server - LMS 7.9.1 -* Pi3/Pi screen/HiFiBerry DAC+/piCorePlayer
3.22/jivelite, 25K library on WDMyCloud, cache and playlists on a USB
stick (formatted ntfs).
*Lounge* - Pi 2/Max2Play > HiFiBerry DIGI+ > AudioEngine DAC1 > AVI DM5
*Dining Room* - Pi3 > HiFiBerry AMP+/retro radio
*Garage* - Pi3/Pi screen/HiFiBerry DAC+/piCorePlayer 3.22 > Edifier
R980T
*In car* - LMS 7.9.1 > RPi3/Max2Play > HiFiBerry DAC+ > car's hifi
(files on a 2TB portable USB drive)
*Spares* - 1xTouch, 1xSB3, 1xRadio, 1xBoom
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[ralphpnj]

Post by kidstypike
You didn't mention this must have :( :)
24731

A "must have"?!?

When I used one of these devices on my turntable it seemed as if i was
listening through a dirty window. In addition the entire soundstage
collapsed and the tonal balance was all wrong. Not to mention that the
pace of the music dragged.

So did I touch all the audiophile bases? :)

Here's another "must have" device:


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
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& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
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Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
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[kidstypike]

Ah . . but you had one, and so did I, but very sensibly *I* didn't use
it. :confused:



*Study/Server - LMS 7.9.1 -* Pi3/Pi screen/HiFiBerry DAC+/piCorePlayer
3.22/jivelite, 25K library on WDMyCloud, cache and playlists on a USB
stick (formatted ntfs).
*Lounge* - Pi 2/Max2Play > HiFiBerry DIGI+ > AudioEngine DAC1 > AVI DM5
*Dining Room* - Pi3 > HiFiBerry AMP+/retro radio
*Garage* - Pi3/Pi screen/HiFiBerry DAC+/piCorePlayer 3.22 > Edifier
R980T
*In car* - LMS 7.9.1 > RPi3/Max2Play > HiFiBerry DAC+ > car's hifi
(files on a 2TB portable USB drive)
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[slartibartfast]

Post by Pascal Hibon
Sure but that is not an equal competition. CD has the advantage; it is
the better format. And when done right should sound better no matter
what cart one uses.
I'm just amazed how good that cart plays. It is very close to CD
quality.
Playing vinyl once and a while is more than just the SQ alone. Mnyb
described it correctly: it's also about the ritual.
The Benz cart adds a dimension to the experience since it makes my
records sound a whole lot better that the Sure does. (oeps, now I start
to sound like an audiophile...)

Turntables and cartridges are an area where "audiophile" tweaking
definitely can make a difference. Have a look at this cartridge mod.
https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=20559.0


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[arnyk]

Post by Pascal Hibon
Last week I was at a friend’s house and while I was there he played a
few vinyl records. While we were chatting, I mentioned that would love
to compare an MC cart to my current MM cart, which is a Shure M97xE. I
like the Shure but my only complaint is that it lacks a bit of
resolution in the high frequency range. Apart from that I always
wondered about the differences between MM and MC carts in general. Do
they sound really that much different / better?
My friend had an MC cart which he wasn’t using anymore and he lent it to
me for comparison. This is a Benz Ace high output cart so it would work
with my MM phono pre-amp.
Boy oh boy, what a difference! The Ace is brighter than the Shure and
the high frequencies sound very nice and clean. Okay I know the Shure
costs about 100 Euro while the Benz costs about 1000 Euro. That is about
900 Euro difference; the difference in sound between the two is not 900
Euro (I kept telling myself). But Since then I’ve listening to a lot of
my vinyl records again. I’m getting more and more comfortable with the
heavy price tag of the Benz. I don’t know if that is a good thing…
It is still a lot of money to slam on a turntable and in the end it is
just a cartridge. I’m wondering if anyone here is having or had the same
experience on the topic? If I would get an MC cart and a cheaper one
than the Ace would I still love the sound so much? One thing is for
sure, the Shure won’t cut it anymore…
Love to hear your experiences.

No you won't want to hear my opinions, if you are at all a normal
audiophile.

What I get from the OP is a pile of audiophile nervosa wrapped up in a
post that follows the plot of jillions of other audiophile tall tales
I've heard over the decades.

(1) Friend spends the big bucks on a new toy.

(2) Sighted evalation of new toywith no reliable standard for sound
quality on the premesis.

(3) Audiophile falls in love with expensive new toy belonging to
friend.

(4) Audiophile ascribes all sorts of wonderful sonic things for
expensive new toy.

I'll bet money that there was not even any formal level matching in the
evaluation.

So, is it the new toy or the classic expeirement in sociology?

The outcome was/is absolutely predictable.

The solution ito this problem is as always technical tests and good
listening evaluations, both of which are geneally ignored by audiophiles
because of their apparent connections with logic and reason.


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[ralphpnj]

...both of which are generally ignored by audiophiles because of their
apparent connections with logic and reason.

Substitute "elected officials" for "audiophiles" and you have a perfect
description of how the US (and any other) government works.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Daverz]

No you won't want to hear my opinions if you are at all a normal
audiophile.
What I get from the OP is a pile of audiophile nervosa wrapped up in a
post that follows the plot of jillions of other audiophile tall tales
I've heard over the decades.
(1) Friend spends the big bucks on a new toy.
(2) Sighted evaluation of the new toy with no reliable standard for
sound quality on the premises.
(3) Audiophile falls in love with expensive new toy belonging to a
friend.
(4) Audiophile ascribes all sorts of wonderful sonic things for an
expensive new toy.
I'll bet money that there was not even any formal level matching in the
evaluation.
So, is it the new toy or the classic experiment in sociology?
The outcome was/is absolutely predictable.
The solution to this problem is as always technical tests and good
listening evaluations, both of which are generally ignored by
audiophiles because of their apparent connections with logic and reason.

You know that Pascal can hear you, right? Do you not realize how
obnoxious this kind of cod psychoanalysis is? Especially as no claims
were made beyond "I enjoyed some records on my friends equipment."

Anyway, electro-mechanical transducers like phono cartridges have rather
gross differences from each other, even just in frequency response.
Absolute level matching is probably not essential during a casual
listening session at a friends house.

I do lament to the loss of measurements in modern reviews of analog
equipment.


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[arnyk]

Post by Daverz
You know that Pascal can hear you, right? Do you not realize how
obnoxious this kind of cod psychoanalysis is? Especially as no claims
were made beyond "I enjoyed some records on my friends equipment."

OK so a frank analysis of what is obvioius to many can cause pain in
hypersensitive places; I can handle that!

The name-calling and deceptive redaction of the OP is noted, and really
says all that I need to say.

Post by Daverz
Anyway, electro-mechanical transducers like phono cartridges have rather
gross differences from each other, even just in frequency response.

More deception.
The true facts are that different phono cartrdiges may or may not have
audible timbre differences, but mismatching levels is well known way to
make things sound different, especially in the realm of timbre.
For example, play this file loud enough, and the first several tones
will sound like they are have different pitch, even though the only
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4yz96cxig0e3pen/dynamic%20range%20test%203%20KHz%20tone.flac?dl=0

Post by Daverz
Absolute level matching is probably not essential during a casual
listening session at a friends house.

I never said that absolute level matching is required. More
deceptive paraphrasing. I do recommend that levels be matched within
+-0.1 dB based on average RMS levels across the whole selection,

Post by Daverz
I do lament to the loss of measurements in modern reviews of analog
equipment.> > > >

They can be found if you know where to look.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/vinyl/turntable-accessories/shure-m97xe-phono-cartridge-review/
However their loss is easy to attribute to the techical dumbing down
of audio as a hobby based on rampant subjectivism. Solipsists have
no need for measurements, they already have found the "Truth Within"

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[cliveb]

Been away in Australia for a few weeks so late to this thread. Thought
I'd offer my take on it.

Vinyl LP technology is outdated, seriously flawed and quite frankly a
bit of a dog's dinner.

And yet - it can sound bloody marvelous. Go figure. My personal opinion
is that it's because human hearing is sufficiently poor that even LP can
be adequate. (I know Arny wouldn't agree).

Bottom line : mastering quality is more important than the delivery
medium. If the best master is only available on LP, then the LP will
give the most enjoyable listening experience.

As for the debate over cartridge types, I generally found that low
output MC types gave more "boogie factor" than MM or high output MCs.
Quite possibly less accurate than a decent Shure model, but in the
context of vinyl, accuracy isn't really the point.

And finally, if you're serious about vinyl, do yourself a favour and get
a vacuum cleaning machine such as a Nitty Gritty, VPI or Moth. Or a
Keith Monks if you're very rich.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[Pascal Hibon]

Post by cliveb
Vinyl LP technology is outdated, seriously flawed and quite frankly a
bit of a dog's dinner.

I agree with that. Although I never ditched my vinyl collection I never
listened to it.
Until I recently discovered that it can sound a bit better than I was
used to.

Post by cliveb
And yet - it can sound bloody marvelous. Go figure. My personal opinion
is that it's because human hearing is sufficiently poor that even LP can
be adequate. (I know Arny wouldn't agree).

Yes it can sound great.
This is not to say that I'm about to ditch my CD's...
I just enjoy a vinyl album every now and then. And this is what our
hobby should be all about: enjoyment.

Post by cliveb
Bottom line : mastering quality is more important than the delivery
medium. If the best master is only available on LP, then the LP will
give the most enjoyable listening experience.

That is so true.
The term listening fatigue is probably due to poorly mastered and
compressed music.

Post by cliveb
As for the debate over cartridge types, I generally found that low
output MC types gave more "boogie factor" than MM or high output MCs.

My experience with MC carts is too limited but I did enjoy the Benz Ace
which was a high output MC cart. The OC9 I have now is a low output
cart.
I didn't AB the two carts and frankly I'm not interested in doing that
(for the few vinyl records I play). But I have the feeling that the OC9
produces a tad bit more detail.



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
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[Golden Earring]

Post by cliveb
Been away in Australia for a few weeks so late to this thread. Thought
I'd offer my take on it.
Vinyl LP technology is outdated, seriously flawed and quite frankly a
bit of a dog's dinner.
And yet - it can sound bloody marvelous. Go figure. My personal opinion
is that it's because human hearing is sufficiently poor that even LP can
be adequate. (I know Arny wouldn't agree).
Bottom line : mastering quality is more important than the delivery
medium. If the best master is only available on LP, then the LP will
give the most enjoyable listening experience.
As for the debate over cartridge types, I generally found that low
output MC types gave more "boogie factor" than MM or high output MCs.
Quite possibly less accurate than a decent Shure model, but in the
context of vinyl, accuracy isn't really the point.
And finally, if you're serious about vinyl, do yourself a favour and get
a vacuum cleaning machine such as a Nitty Gritty, VPI or Moth. Or a
Keith Monks if you're very rich.

Hi Clive!

I trust that you had a great time in Australia & am delighted to hear
that you are back in Watford unscathed: they DO have some seriously
unfriendly + potentially deadly wildlife out there if you get too far
from the beach. In either direction! ;)

I'm in full agreement with most of your post, which is why I have quoted
it in full.

I have no idea why Arny is -so- belligerent on this forum, especially to
newbies. It is actually an unsolved mystery of the universe, because I
have observed him go out of his way to be helpful to newcomers on other
forums. I myself had a fairly extended run-in with him when I started
posting on here until I bluntly accused him of being rude & (hopefully!)
demonstrated that I am NOT a complete idiot either when it comes to
hi-fi or other areas of human ignorance (we don't really know anything,
as per Socrates... ). Since then I have actually had some interesting
discussions with him & have learned a lot of what we think we know! I
suppose one must accept that it takes all sorts (sorry, Arny!) & attempt
to accentuate the positive.

I particularly agree with your comments about mastering & would add that
the skill of the recording engineer is also paramount, especially when
it comes to classical music: Walter Legge assembled his Philharmonia
Orchestra in the 1950s specifically to record their output. But his
skill at capturing the balance of an orchestra, especially in the
concerto style, is practically unsurpassable. A particular favourite of
mine is the 1954 (mono) recording of Mozart's 4 Horn Concertos, with the
late great Dennis Brain on French Horn & Herbert Von Karajan conducting
in a particularly NON-Teutonic fashion. Of course, you can now get it in
a fairly pointless 24bit 96kHz box, but I derived great pleasure from it
on a good EMI vinyl pressing in the 1980s. Which brings me to my other
point...

You reckon that low output MC cartridges *generally* sound better than
high output ones: would you carry that generalisation so far as to
include my original 1980s Koetsu Rosewood Signature, or would you need
to hear it first to make up your mind? Of course, it's -not- perfect
(neither am I, wouldn't that be awful? :D ), but it IS very musical!

It might be cheaper to replace your discs than to BUY a professional
cleaning machine! Does no-one offer a professional record cleaning
service with a fixed price per disc anymore?

Dave :cool:


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[Guy48065]

... Does no-one offer a professional record cleaning service with a
fixed price per disc anymore?

Absolutely. It's run out of the back of a buggywhip shop that I
frequent. I can send along the address if interested. They don't have
a phone (naturally).



Squeezebox Touch (Classic in system #2)
Notebook serving .3T library
Control:
Samsung phone or tablet + OrangeSqueeze,
Duet remote
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[Apesbrain]

Just chiming in to say that I use a Benz ACE (0.8 mV; first gen model)
and like it very much. I've owned many cartridges including an
Audio-Technica AT-14Sa. If I needed a new cartridge, I'm sure I could
live happily with one of the current A-T line such as the VM-740ML. My
memory is of a nice clean sound and very good tracking. I've always
read favorable things about the OC-9 series as well. Enjoy!


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[Pascal Hibon]

Post by Apesbrain
Just chiming in to say that I use a Benz ACE (0.8 mV; first gen model)
and like it very much. I've owned many cartridges including an
Audio-Technica AT-14Sa. If I needed a new cartridge, I'm sure I could
live happily with one of the current A-T line such as the VM-740ML. My
memory is of a nice clean sound and very good tracking. I've always
read favorable things about the OC-9 series as well. Enjoy!

Both the Ace and the OC-9 are very good carts.
And yes, I'm enjoying the AT.

Listening to ' Van Morrison - The Alternative Moondance.
[image:
Loading Image...]
'
(https://www.discogs.com/Van-Morrison-The-Alternative-Moondance/release/11896140)

This is a Record Store Day 2018 release. Great album!



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[Golden Earring]

Hi Bill & Clive!

As I think I've mentioned (somewhere!) before, I had one of these
beasties, with an SME 3009 Mk2 (?) arm & a Shure V15 Mk III cartridge
before I got the LP12/Ittok combo: this originally had a cheap &
cheerful MM cartridge fitted (I can't even remember what it was now,
other than it was grossly inadequate) - it was another of my s/hand
bargains: the gentleman who owned it was a Venezuelan gentleman who was
working at their London embassy, but was being transferred in a rush to
Madrid. His first problem was that you couldn't air-freight the Ittok
because the reduced pressure in the cargo hold would knacker the
precision ball-races in the main bearings, & the second was there were
at that time no Linn dealers in Spain who would be able to set it up
again properly if he sent it by sea. So he concluded that his only
option was to flog it quick & get a different deck (I think he had a
Pink Triangle in mind, good choice at the time, actually... ).

BUT, because he was in an awful rush, I negotiated a very good deal for
cash! I was sure that embassy staff got paid well, so I didn't see any
reason to feel sorry for him. We set it up in my system & he stayed for
a couple of hours to listen to some of my music. Needless to say, his
English -was- perfect & he -was- a thoroughly nice chap. Anyway, the
cartridge had to go, & I got a Koetsu Black (the one my younger daughter
later annihilated!) s/hand for £200 & I believe that I had to buy the MC
board for my Meridian 101 pre-amp of the time (OK, but nothing
special... ) *new *which REALLY hurt, lol.

Anyway, the new deck combo blew the old one away! Ivor Tiefenbaum (?) of
Linn was more of a salesman than an engineer - they got their precision
engineering done for them by another firm, but he was spot on with his
by-line that you can't get back what you've lost at the start - the
Shure would track -anything- at 1g, but the SME's knife-edge bearings
meant that it could *-wobble -*& that's no good at all!

I -was- sorry to sell the Transcriptor's deck - it *was* a gorgeous
thing (question for Bill - does it have a 33/45 rpm switch? If so, that
was a LOT easier than the original LP12, which -could- play 45s - I had
a few 12" ones which were very dynamic - but you had to take the platter
off, fit an adaptor over the motor drive & THEN fit a different length
belt!! It WAS a hassle. But the "hydraulic" bit was also a pain on the
Transcriptor's because the fluid well kept filling up with general crud
& particularly bits of discarded hair which made the speed fluctuate, so
you had to clean it out frequently & refill it with the not inexpensive
viscous fluid that they specified. The strobe WAS a nice touch though. I
think ultimately the verybasic bearing & the lack of any sub-chassis
isolation let it down.

Just my two penny-worth, as ever...

Dave :cool:


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[artee]

Post by Golden Earring
As I think I've mentioned (somewhere!) before, I had one of these
beasties, with an SME 3009 Mk2 (?) arm & a Shure V15 Mk III cartridge
before I got the LP12/Ittok combo...

I used to like the Shure V15 Mk III a lot - terrific tracking and a
(relatively) neutral sound. I used it in a Philips GA212. A good friend
at the time had the Linn Sondek & (I think) Liinn arm and Linn
cartridge. He was often pissed off because he paid roughly twice as much
as I did, for no better sound.

I was interested in the famous/notorious Decca London cartridge, and
whether it would work well in the Philips. I wrote to Decca asking the
question. A couple of days later a Decca London cartridge arrived in the
post, with a letter from Decca saying words to the effect of "-we don't
know if it'll work OK in your turntable - try it out, and if it works OK
and you like it, send us money. If you don't want it, send it back-".
Different times...


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[Golden Earring]

Post by artee
I used to like the Shure V15 Mk III a lot - terrific tracking and a
(relatively) neutral sound. I used it in a Philips GA212. A good friend
at the time had the Linn Sondek & (I think) Liinn arm and Linn
cartridge. He was often pissed off because he paid roughly twice as much
as I did, for no better sound.
I was interested in the famous/notorious Decca London cartridge, and
whether it would work well in the Philips. I wrote to Decca asking the
question. A couple of days later a Decca London cartridge arrived in the
post, with a letter from Decca saying words to the effect of "-we don't
know if it'll work OK in your turntable - try it out, and if it works OK
and you like it, send us money. If you don't want it, send it back-".
Different times...

Hi artee!

DID you like it??

Dave :cool:


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[artee]

Post by Golden Earring
Hi artee!
DID you like it??

Like the curate's egg - good in parts. They were the diametric opposite
of the Shure V15 III in terms of trackability, and I don't think that
the turntable/arm suited it much at all. Having said that, the midrange
was sublime. Tracking fell aprt on either side of the midrange, though.
They had what Decca called (if I remember correctly) "Direct tracking"
which meant that the stylus didn't pivot through a piece of compliant
material. That could also have been the cause of its lack of
forgiveness.
I returned it, sadly - but have very fond memories of it.

Rick


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[Golden Earring]

Post by artee
Like the curate's egg - good in parts. They were the diametric opposite
of the Shure V15 III in terms of trackability, and I don't think that
the turntable/arm suited it much at all. Having said that, the midrange
was sublime. Tracking fell aprt on either side of the midrange, though.
They had what Decca called (if I remember correctly) "Direct tracking"
which meant that the stylus didn't pivot through a piece of compliant
material. That could also have been the cause of its lack of
forgiveness.
I returned it, sadly - but have very fond memories of it.
Rick

My Koetsu Rosewood Signature doesn't track (at 2g, but aided by a sexy
stylus shape into not filing my vinyl down too quickly!) as well as the
V15 III (at 1g) did either: BUT it sounds -miles- better...

Dave :cool:


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[dhallag]

My NAD phono preamp has both, so it was just a case of switching from
one to the other to see which one sounded best.



LMS 7.9.1 on QNAP 219P+
3 wired Touch End Points
Jolida Tube DAC III
Marantz 2270 to Boston Acoustics Slimlines
Marantz 7010 to B&W CM10 S2
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[cliveb]

Post by Golden Earring
You reckon that low output MC cartridges *generally* sound better than
high output ones: would you carry that generalisation so far as to
include my original 1980s Koetsu Rosewood Signature, or would you need
to hear it first to make up your mind? Of course, it's -not- perfect
(neither am I, wouldn't that be awful? :D ), but it IS very musical!

I didn't say they sound *better*, just that they have more "boogie
factor". They appear to give a more dynamic sound (in the sense of what
an audiophile might call "faster"), but I'm not sure it is necessarily
better in an objective sense - it could be some kind of distortion that
happens to give the impression of more dynamics. My gut feeling is that
a high end MM like a Shure V15 or similar is probably a more neutral
transducer.

I've never heard a Koetsu, for the very practical reason that I didn't
want to in case it made me need to afford to buy one. But IIRC, Koetsu
cartridges share a lot of design features with the Supex ones, and I do
remember them being a little more refined and less "in your face" than
things like Dynavectors and Linn MCs.

Post by Golden Earring
It might be cheaper to replace your discs than to BUY a professional
cleaning machine!

Even fresh out of the bag brand-new LPs can have mold release agent that
is worth removing. And apart from the Keith Monks (which is thousands to
buy), vacuum cleaners can be had for a few hundred. They are the only
*really* effective way to clean LPs.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[Mnyb]

Yes the best MM transducers ( I owned som Grado’s to ) is probably the
best trackers. Like,the Ortofon OM40 .

And not to mention the matching with ones tone arm ? Any results is
possible ?

And fine tuning the impedance of the phono preamp , I’ve had an
electrocompagniet mc pre with whole bunch of resistors to exchange .
Some riaa stages in some amps I’ve had had capacitive matching too ,
needed for MM pickups .

So probably each one of would get disparate results with the same pickup
:)

One could try to find the best transducer , but I’ve seen very few
decent test on pickups of any kind .
You need special records to measure their abilities. And they all have
clear flaws .

In the end I’ve found that all LP playback systems I owned had obvious
audible flaws . They are like speakers in a way , you always have
audible distortion of some kind . There are no truly transparent choices
( like it is in digital and modern analog electronics ).
So you have to pick your poison. But you can do it smartly and not just
on feelings .

When we have transducers , pickups microphones and speakers , some of
them are better by objective results but there is also an element of
taste involved



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[Pascal Hibon]

Post by Mnyb
When we have transducers , pickups microphones and speakers , some of
them are better by objective results but there is also an element of
taste involved

Amen to that :-)



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
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[Golden Earring]

Post by cliveb
I've never heard a Koetsu, for the very practical reason that I didn't
want to in case it made me need to afford to buy one. But IIRC, Koetsu
cartridges share a lot of design features with the Supex ones, and I do
remember them being a little more refined and less "in your face" than
things like Dynavectors and Linn MCs.
Even fresh out of the bag brand-new LPs can have mold release agent that
is worth removing. And apart from the Keith Monks (which is thousands to
buy), vacuum cleaners can be had for a few hundred. They are the only
*really* effective way to clean LPs.

Hi Clive!

Just for nostalgia's sake (I -am- 63 now, so please indulge me... ),
I've decided to create a 3-way system: analogue, CD & only 10 years
out-of-date Transporter-based digital music streamer.

I had a Koetsu Black (which I had picked up s/hand in the 1980's for
£200, as ever!) in my original (pre-EVERYTHING LP12 with Ittok LVII arm
+ extra counterweight): it was a LOT better than my previous
Transcriptor's Hydraulic Reference deck with SME 3009 Mk2 (?) & Shure
V15-III MM cartridge, even through my fairly average Meridian 101
pre-amp (with internal MC card fitter after the deck swap) + pair of
Meridian 105 mono-block amps attempting to tame my monstrously reactive
Spendor BCIII loudspeakers.

THEN my sweet 2 year old daughter with the agility of a monkey climbed
out of her play-pen when my wife was briefly occupied elsewhere in my
house & managed to climb up the wall about 5 feet to where I had
carefully relocated my record deck on a wall bracket to keep it out of
reach from curious little fingers! So when I got home from a hard slog
in the City, my Koetsu was lacking its entire cantilever (which we never
even found for all the good that would do). Oh well.

Being fairly flush at the time, I had an "all bells & whistles" home
contents insurance policy with new for old replacement cover through the
bank which my wife worked for. I got it out & read the small print. We
were certainly not under-insured, but there was a limit for unspecified
items of £1500. By good fortune my wife's brother also worked for the
same bank, in a different bank & of course his surname was her maiden
name. So I got him to put in a general enquiry on behalf of an anonymous
potential insurance customer as to whether the insurance division of the
bank would regard the deck, arm + cartridge of a "high-end" set-up as
separate items with regard to their £1500 limit, or whether they would
class the entire ensemble as one item (thereby requiring specific
identification as a high-value item if it was worth over £1500 - this
was something which I had -not -done when taking out *my* policy): btw,
the LP12 + Ittok were s/hand as well, lol, you know what I'm like...

So, via Mike, the answer comes back that the whole thing is ONE item: no
real surprise there, I am dealing with an insurance company. But no
cause for despair, a quick visit to a really good local retailer (who
had a -seriously- impressive collection of 10,000 vinyl albums for
auditioning purposes - he actually LIKED music himself) who could supply
all my deck components new, & a polite request for a valuation that
*maximised* the value of my stone cold dead Koetsu Black, whilst
bringing in the overall valuation of the set in under £1500 & btw, I
will make this worth your while: "No problem, Dave!". Nice guy, the
Koetsu Black was £595, & the grand total was something like £1487.75p!!
;) MAGIC

I filed my claim. The bank sent out a loss adjuster. I showed him my
diminutive daughter (she's still under 5' at age 27, but
perfectly-proportioned of course!), the substantial Alcatraz model
play-pen & the carefully positioned wall bracket for my deck - then I
gave him Rob's "independent" valuation on his impressive letterhead. he
loss adjuster stared at it all, then shrugged his shoulders & said, "I
think we're going to have to pay this one". RESULT

The only problem is, I can't play my music! So I scour the s/hand ads &
come across this geezer knocking out a pre-owned Koetsu Rosewood
Signature (then list £2000, still available new at a bargain £3798
according to Oxford Audio Consultants) for £500. I phone the geezer up -
he assures me that it's had minimal use, & was formerly installed in a
Goldmund Reference Turntable, which was serious kit at around £30,000 a
pop. I get a distinct sense that I'm NOT being fed a line, this guy just
needs some quick cash. I tell him that I have a good idea & that I'll be
in touch again shortly when I've set it up. So I call Rob, who is
-deeply- sceptical - I point out that I'm already nearly £400 up, so I'm
not really risking much - but what I'd like to do is to pay him the £500
to hold in escrow: then I'll get the geezer to call him (he can check
that the number is legit, this is a high-end shop here) & when he has
confirmation that Rob has my cash with express permission to pay it on,
he will ship the cartridge to Rob for inspection. If it works OK, he
gets the dosh. Rob goes for it, geezer goes for it, cartridge is fine.

So I pay Rob £90 to re-balance my LP12 (tricky job, if you don't know
what you're doing) & to fit the Rosewood Signature into the business end
of my Ittok, including the supply of the necessary extra counterweight.

And that's how you get a Koetsu Rosewood Signature, folks! Apart from
the original £200 quid that I'd paid for the Black, the additional cost
overall was a negative £5. The Rosewood Signature knocked spots off the
Black for sheer musicality & my errant daughter became Hero Of The
Year...

Dave :cool:


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[Golden Earring]

Post by Golden Earring
Hi Clive!
Just for nostalgia's sake (I -am- 63 now, so please indulge me... ),
I've decided to create a 3-way system: analogue, CD & only 10 years
out-of-date Transporter-based digital music streamer.

I realise that it's a bit self-indulgent to quote myself, but I'm
-seriously- hypomanic just atm what with my bipolar affective thingy (I
can't sleep, which is why I'm posting on here in the middle of the
night), so I hope that you will understand. If you think that I'm
becoming incoherent (how am I supposed to tell?), give me a nudge & I'll
leave you all in peace.

However, attention span -is- an issue atm, & I have noticed that I
dropped the ball by starting off mentioning my nostalgia project & then
rambling on about Koetsus & not mentioning it again.

So here it is, FWIW: I've decided that my LP12 is *so* behind the things
that it would cost way too much to bring up to current (& vastly
over-priced) spec, not to mention that the bearings in my Ittok are
probably a bit dodgy after 30 years of very little use (none at all for
the last 20!) & 7 house moves in the meantime. So that'll get knocked
out to someone even -more- nostalgic than me, who likes fiddling with
stuff.

Instead, I've secured some fairly serious Avid gear s/hand at a great
price: Volvere SP turntable with bearing upgrade & twin drive belt mod
by the original Avid dealer with SME 309 arm rewired with fully balanced
silver litz internal cable (you *can* make tis work with the Rosewood
Signature if you're prepared to get down & dirty with all the
adjustments - & since I AM the Devil, attention to detail IS my
speciality ;) . Obviously the SME Series V is a potential upgrade, but
from what I've read, most of the advantage is in the ease of adjustment
rather than any major improvement in sound, *if* I succeed in getting
the 309 aligned correctly. Add to that a pretty serious 2 box MM/MC
phono preamp, with balanced XLR in & outs, called the Pellere (this is
definitely my king of kit: its multitude of adjustable cartridge
loadings, both resistive & capacitive + its gain options are ALL
concealed on the underside of the unit, so the front has no controls at
all - &why not? after all, once you've set it correctly, it's done... ).

So that's the nostalgia analogue side: I'm just praying that the Koetsu
is still on-song, since Sugano-sen Senior who made it has not been with
us for some time, although Sugano-sen Junior is continuing the family
business of exquisitely hand-made cartridges, & is allegedly -nearly- as
good as his dad was, which is why they're still not particularly cheap -
each one is like a musical instrument. IF mine does need a re-build it
will not be cheap, since hey routinely replace everything except the
rosewood case (which apparently *improves* with age, a bit like me.
lol!), but at least I'd get the boron magnets which weren't available in
the 1980's when mine was born. *N**ote to Clive:* you did well to avoid
ever hearing one! ;) As Hannibal says in "The Silence Of The Lambs" to
Clarisse, you only covet what you see (or in this case, hear!). Once
I've got it all set up, which will involve some serious amateur woodwork
to create some acoustically isolated plinths & shelving, I'll let you
know if you'd like to hear what you missed - don't worry, it -can't-
compete with Shannon-Nyquist powered digital streaming from a
bit-perfect source, can it?

As for the CD nostalgia trip, that's simple - I've got hold of a Pathos
Acoustics endorphin in pristine condition, from eBay of all places. It
DID involve a 500-mile road trip & a night in a Premier Inn in
Sheffield, but since they're about as rare as hen's teeth & I negotiated
a 15% discount on the back of the journey (!) from a price that was
already below the going rate such as it sporadically is across the whole
of Europe, neither I nor my trusty 2002 MX-5 bothered too much. It
wouldn't fit in the boot (& you just have to have the large & very
carefully internally padded heavy plywood box: after staring at it for
some time, I reckon that I have now figured out -how -they made the lid
- it can't have been routed, the background is way too smooth! It's a
work of art in itself) so it slept on my double bed, with the help of a
friendly & strapping Yorkshire lass of a receptionist who helped me lug
it up from their secure (but not THAT secure!) underground car park to
the lift & thence to my room on the 9th floor: of course, once I had her
to myself in my bedroom, she wanted to know what I'd got, so I showed
her. Oh, stop misbehaving, I'm talking about the CD player!

Dave (cool)


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[ftlight]

Great stories, Dave!

I still have my Transcriptors deck with the SME arm and Shure cartridge
(all vintage mid-1970s), but the turntable needs a new belt and the
damping fluid has gone away, so I haven't used it in quite a while. On
top of the dustcover I keep the Museum of Modern Art book that shows it
in their collection and has this photo:

https://www.moma.org/collection/works/3339

Bill


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[cliveb]

One big problem with the Transcriptors turntable was its lack of support
for the LP.
When it was designed LPs were a decent thickness, but after the oil
crises of the early 70s they got a lot thinner and couldn't support
their own weight without flexing.
All in all, an interesting piece of art, but a debatable piece of
engineering.



Transporter -> ATC SCM100A
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[Golden Earring]

Post by cliveb
Even fresh out of the bag brand-new LPs can have mold release agent that
is worth removing. And apart from the Keith Monks (which is thousands to
buy), vacuum cleaners can be had for a few hundred. They are the only
*really* effective way to clean LPs.

Agreed.

I put my new ones through my dishwasher.

Just kiddin'... :rolleyes:

Dave :cool:


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[Daverz]

Post by arnyk
OK so a frank analysis of what is obvioius to many can cause pain in
hypersensitive places; I can handle that!
The name-calling and deceptive redaction of the OP is noted, and really
says all that I need to say.

What name calling? I called your -post- obnoxious, because, if we are
being frank now, it was obnoxious. You saw a post about analog
equipment and your objectivist warrior mode kicked in (if it is in fact
ever turned off).


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[arnyk]

Post by Daverz
What name calling? I called your -post- obnoxious, because, if we are
being frank now, it was obnoxious. You saw a post about analog
equipment and your objectivist warrior mode kicked in (if it is in fact
ever turned off).

LOL. You post all the above and have the chutzpah to claim no
name-calling.

So what is "Objectivist Warrior" is not name calling?

This is a level of lack of self-awareness that I am all too familiar
with as I deal with solipsistic illusional audiophiles all the time.

Have a nice day!


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[Pascal Hibon]

No you won't want to hear my opinions if you are at all a normal
audiophile.

What exactly is a "normal audiophile"?
How do you measure that?

The solution to this problem is ...

There is / was no problem.
I was just amazed by the sound quality produced by the Benz Ace.


You seems to be quite an arrogant person. I posted an honest question
and wasn't really out to get "smart answers" like yours.
If that's all you have to say then just say nothing!



'Cambridge Audio 851D-S'
(https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/851/851d) -> 'Focal MP1200'
(http://www.mp1200.co.nf/) -> 'Focal Electra 1028 Be'
(http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/209-electra-1028-be-3544053695099.html)
1 x SB Boom, 1 x SB Radio, 1 x SB Touch and 2 x RPI 2B
1 x SB3 and 1 x SB Touch in storage
ReadyNAS NVX running LMS 7.9.0.
iPeng on iPhone, SqueezePad & iPeng on iPad.
http://www.last.fm/user/phibon
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[drmatt]

I don't think it's an indictment of human hearing that people like LP so
much. More a reflection of the fact that the net result of all the
inevitable distortions seems to flatter the audio in the first place,
making it better fit the home audio playback environment at lower
listening levels and mitigating the worst mastering disasters too.


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
Debian+LMS 7.9.0
Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..
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