MEASUREMENTS: Windows music players...

[Archimago]

Like for the Mac, here are some measurements for Windows programs. I'm
looking forward to the JPLAY results in Part II probably next week some
times... Gotta lay the framework for more "standard" players first.

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/06/measurements-part-i-bit-perfect.html


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Julf]

Post by Archimago
Like for the Mac, here are some measurements for Windows programs.

Excellent! Much appreciated!

Post by Archimago
I'm looking forward to the JPLAY results in Part II probably next week
some times...

Definitely looking forward to that!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Mnyb]

Excellent ! is not the emperors wardrobe quite empty soon :)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[darrenyeats]

Post by Mnyb
Excellent ! is not the emperors wardrobe quite empty soon :)

He-he.

Thanks Archimago.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Archimago]

Post by Mnyb
Excellent ! is not the emperors wardrobe quite empty soon :)

:-)

Once I finish the JPLAY test, the closet is looking pretty threadbare I
think... Just in time for summer with the kids and an overseas trip.

fordgtlover is sending me a Receiver to test so I likely will do a
refresh of the older measurements of the Squeezebox gear (most likely
another look at the Touch).

If you guys have any new ideas for tests or a question around something
that I might be able to have a look at on the test bench, let me know...
Especially regarding the SB Receiver before I send it back and the
Touch before I hook it back upstairs!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[SBGK]

Post by Archimago
:-)
Once I finish the JPLAY test, the closet is looking pretty threadbare I
think... Just in time for summer with the kids and an overseas trip.
fordgtlover is sending me a Receiver to test so I likely will do a
refresh of the older measurements of the Squeezebox gear (most likely
another look at the Touch).
If you guys have any new ideas for tests or a question around something
that I might be able to have a look at on the test bench, let me know...
Especially regarding the SB Receiver before I send it back and the
Touch before I hook it back upstairs!

how do you calibrate your measurements ? I can quite clearly hear that
different JPlay engines sound different, but your measurements can't
differentiate between them. What differences can your measurements
identify ?

how about testing win 7 vs win 8, they sound different, would your
measurements identify any differences there ?



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[mlsstl]

Post by SBGK
how do you calibrate your measurements ? I can quite clearly hear that
different JPlay engines sound different, but your measurements can't
differentiate between them. What differences can your measurements
identify ?
how about testing win 7 vs win 8, they sound different, would your
measurements identify any differences there ?

That question goes right back at you. How you control for subjective
influences when reporting that you heard a difference?

No one is saying that you didn't perceive a difference, but when the
test is uncontrolled for unconscious influences, the perception may well
be due to that and have nothing to do with any physical difference in
the signal generated by the two items.

Scientific literature is well documented when it comes to the issue of
human perception being influenced by our subconscious, yet audiophiles
often seem to believe that it doesn't apply to them.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Archimago]

Post by SBGK
how do you calibrate your measurements ? I can quite clearly hear that
different JPlay engines sound different, but your measurements can't
differentiate between them. What differences can your measurements
identify ?
how about testing win 7 vs win 8, they sound different, would your
measurements identify any differences there ?

For a test like this one, it's very easy.

Since it's all just digital data going into the DAC via USB and I'm
measuring the analogue output, I manually ensure there's no clipping
going into the ADC device. Typically 100% audio output (RightMark has a
calibration signal for this) from the TEAC corresponds to -0.5dBFS for
the E-MU 0404USB using the gain controls. Beyond that, I make sure
there's no other volume changes going on between tests so everything is
relative from that point. Any relative volume changes for example would
be very easy to tell, especially if the output goes louder (>0.5dB) and
starts clipping the device.

I don't see how I would be able to differentiate Win 7 from Win 8 when
there's no objective difference between Win 8 and Mac OS X using the
asynchronous USB-to-SPDIF device...

See:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/04/measurements-laptop-audio-survey-apple.html
Conclusion item 4.

If you have a theory as to how / why it sounds different, I'll certainly
have a look if it's doable. I can certainly accept that Win 7 and 8 can
sound different with DirectSound since the algorithm could have changed
in the mixer... But of course I can't imagine audiophiles use this form
of audio output except for those who set the system up improperly!



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
If you have a theory as to how / why it sounds different, I'll certainly
have a look if it's doable. I can certainly accept that Win 7 and 8 can
sound different with DirectSound since the algorithm could have changed
in the mixer... But of course I can't imagine audiophiles use this form
of audio output except for those who set the system up improperly (I've
certainly run into this with some friends who are not technically
inclined - probably why many gravitate to the Mac where there's less
chance of messing things up)!

If they graviate to a Mac and are not technically inclined then there is
no chance they will be able use/play FLAC files or use/watch MKV files.
Aren't Macs/Apples great!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[darrenyeats]

Beyond that, I make sure there's no other volume changes going on
between tests so everything is relative from that point (of course make
sure 100% volume with each player software).

But I would have thought if there were any differences between players
(not saying there are) then volume control would be a prime suspect ...
Darren

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Archimago]

Post by darrenyeats
But I would have thought if there were any differences between players
(not saying there are) then volume control would be a prime suspect ...
Darren
Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD

Yeah. I was interested in exploring the allegations that bit-perfect
players each had sonic differences as claimed by some - like JPLAY. Of
course the moment any volume change is messed with, there's no way it'd
be bit-perfect. Good to see that none of the players messed with
amplitude or added EQ.

Interesting that most commercial software these days claim 64-bit
processing - a bit over the top for arbitrary volume changes IMO, 32-bit
I'm pretty sure is good enough :-). I think it'd be better to save the
optimized 64-bit firepower for more complex stuff like convolution
filters.

Speaking of convolution filters, do you guys still do server-side DRC
for the Squeezebox? It's been years since I tried Inguz - does that
still work with LMS 7.8.0?



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[flimflam]

-Although DirectSound does not claim to be "bit-perfect" since it takes
the integer audio --> converts to 32-bit float --> dithered back to
16/24-bit and sent to the DAC through Windows Mixer at a specific sample
rate (set in your Control Panel for the sound device), it looks like it
is able to do this with a single audio stream of the same sample rate
without significant deterioration in the output in the 24-bit domain
(remember the DMAC Test is 24-bit audio) - not exactly rocket science so
this is to be expected. I believe many folks feel the quality of the
Windows Mixer has improved over the years.-

Hi Archimago

A lot of hard work and results on your blog, which I enjoyed reading.

I would like to say that, for 'audiophile' use, the 'mixer' in Windows
XP was the pinnacle, as DirectSound is bitperfect (if the hardware and
audio driver allows).

In Vista and Win 7 (I have not tested Win 8), not only is this
impossible to achieve with DirectSound, but the mixer permanently
engages in more than you describe, the results of which do not look
pretty on a proper suite of tests.


ff.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
flimflam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56891
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Archimago]

Post by flimflam
-Although DirectSound does not claim to be "bit-perfect" since it takes
the integer audio --> converts to 32-bit float --> dithered back to
16/24-bit and sent to the DAC through Windows Mixer at a specific sample
rate (set in your Control Panel for the sound device), it looks like it
is able to do this with a single audio stream of the same sample rate
without significant deterioration in the output in the 24-bit domain
(remember the DMAC Test is 24-bit audio) - not exactly rocket science so
this is to be expected. I believe many folks feel the quality of the
Windows Mixer has improved over the years.-
Hi Archimago
A lot of hard work and results on your blog, which I enjoyed reading.
I would like to say that, for 'audiophile' use, the 'mixer' in Windows
XP was the pinnacle, as DirectSound is bitperfect (if the hardware and
audio driver allows).
In Vista and Win 7 (I have not tested Win 8), not only is this
impossible to achieve with DirectSound, but the mixer permanently
engages in more than you describe, the results of which do not look
pretty on a proper suite of tests.
ff.

Thanks for the note flimflam.

I can't speak for XP since I don't have a machine with it installed any
more. True, these days with Win8, DirectSound will always dither as far
as I can tell, so will never be exactly bit perfect. I would not use
DirectSound in the 16-bit setting since lack of bit perfection is easily
demonstrated, but based on what I see, 24-bit setting seems OK. The
dithering in the lowest bit usually is below the noise floor of DACs
(since there's no DAC that actually can demonstrate 24-bit resolution -
the best is around 21/22 bits).

Not sure what else you feel gets mixed in there if we're only playing a
single audio stream... Of course, one must also make sure the music is
the same sample rate as the DirectSound setting otherwise it gets
resampled.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[flimflam]

Post by Archimago
Thanks for the note flimflam.
I can't speak for XP since I don't have a machine with it installed any
more. True, these days with Win8, DirectSound will always dither as far
as I can tell, so will never be exactly bit perfect. I would not use
DirectSound in the 16-bit setting since lack of bit perfection is easily
demonstrated, but based on what I see, 24-bit setting seems OK. The
dithering in the lowest bit usually is below the noise floor of DACs
(since there's no DAC that actually can demonstrate 24-bit resolution -
the best is around 21/22 bits).
Not sure what else you feel gets mixed in there if we're only playing a
single audio stream... Of course, one must also make sure the music is
the same sample rate as the DirectSound setting otherwise it gets
resampled.

What level were your test signals?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
flimflam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56891
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Archimago]

Post by flimflam
What level were your test signals?

?? Depends on which test you're referring to.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[flimflam]

I think ive done my bit already. the horse is at the well :-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
flimflam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56891
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Archimago]

Post by flimflam
I think ive done my bit already. the horse is at the well :-)

??? Now this is weird...

Remember. The hardware is calibrated at -0.5dBFS so there's no clipping
for the ADC with the gain controls. Software plays at 100% or 0dBFS for
bit-perfection. The rest is automated - there's no hardware or software
adjustment between programs. This should all be obvious.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[flimflam]

Post by Archimago
Remember. The hardware is calibrated at -0.5dBFS so there's no clipping
for the ADC with the gain controls. Software plays at 100% or 0dBFS for
bit-perfection.... there's no hardware or software adjustment between
programs. This should all be obvious.

These are not your test signals, these are settings and controls for
your EUT and analyser. (Btw, let's call it 0dB gain rather than 0dB FS.
the latter is incorrect and may cause misunderstanding - especially in
this very discussion)

Post by Archimago
The rest is automated (ie. actual "levels" for tests/subtests determined
by what's being tested for).

Now, these are your test signals, and what I was asking about (both
actually and rhetorically). With the exception of the J-Test signal,
these could be at any level.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
flimflam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56891
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Archimago]

Post by flimflam
These are not your test signals, these are settings and controls for
your EUT and analyser. (Btw, let's call it 0dB gain rather than 0dB FS.
the latter is incorrect and may cause misunderstanding - especially in
this very discussion)
Now, these are your test signals, and what I was asking about (both
actually and rhetorically). With the exception of the J-Test signal,
these could be at any level.

??? Not sure the significance of your comments or what exactly this
"very discussion" about. Test signals same for all conditions. Only
variable changed being software player.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[flimflam]

Post by Archimago
??? Not sure the significance of your comments or what exactly this
"very discussion" about. Test signals same for all conditions. Only
variable changed being software player.

Hi Archimago

I was asking what the levels of your test signals were, not whether they
were different for different players.

This was significant for the discussion, which was about Directsound.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
flimflam's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56891
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933

[Archimago]

Post by flimflam
Hi Archimago
I was asking what the levels of your test signals were, not whether they
were different for different players.
This was significant for the discussion, which was about Directsound.

Still unclear about the significance of the question. Would you like to
clarify what you're wondering about or how the levels may be impacting
the result from DirectSound?



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=98933