Clowntime is NOT over

[ralphpnj]

So Robert Harley, the clown in chief over at The Absolute Sound, is at
it again in the latest issue (Feb. 2014, Issue 240) of TAS. In a sidebar
to his review of the Naim NDS Network Player he discusses why one should
wav files as opposed to flac files:

"....The term 'lossless' refers to the fact that the uncompressed
datastream from a FLAC file is bit-for-bit identical to the WAV file
that created it (sic)."

So far so good, but then he goes completely off the rails:

"...Claiming a sonic difference exists between two 'identical'
bitstreams may appear to be the height of audiophile lunacy, but there's
a rational explanation for why FLAC files sounds (sic) inferior: The
file must be decompressed on the fly during playback, a process that
many computer-audio experts believe degrades fidelity."

So who are these so called "computer-audio experts" and exactly what
kind of computer are they using?

Just another reason why I have absolutely zero respect for any and all
of these clowns. They are nothing but a big joke and a never ending
source of misinformation.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[callesoroe]

Post by ralphpnj
So Robert Harley, the clown in chief over at The Absolute Sound, is at
it again in the latest issue (Feb. 2014, Issue 240) of TAS. In a sidebar
to his review of the Naim NDS Network Player he discusses why one should
"....The term 'lossless' refers to the fact that the uncompressed
datastream from a FLAC file is bit-for-bit identical to the WAV file
that created it (sic)."
"...Claiming a sonic difference exists between two 'identical'
bitstreams may appear to be the height of audiophile lunacy, but there's
a rational explanation for why FLAC files sounds (sic) inferior: The
file must be decompressed on the fly during playback, a process that
many computer-audio experts believe degrades fidelity."
So who are these so called "computer-audio experts" and exactly what
kind of computer are they using?
Just another reason why I have absolutely zero respect for any and all
of these clowns. They are nothing but a big joke and a never ending
source of misinformation.

It is because the audio fools don't understand the difference between a
COMPRESSED audio file(mp3) and a PACKED lossless file(flac). Sad but
true ....



Callesoroe
Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan
Vista speakers, AMPS(Icepower): Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma
PLUS(PANELS), Acoustic Reality Ear TWO MKII(Bas)
Kitchen: SB-duet, Beresford TC7510 DAC, Prodipe Pro 5 active bi-amp
speakers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
callesoroe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22693
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by callesoroe
It is because the audio fools don't understand the difference between a
COMPRESSED audio file(mp3) and a PACKED lossless file(flac). Sad but
true ....

Oh no, Harley clearly knows the difference because he explains the
differences in that same sidebar. Why he chooses to repeat this long ago
disproved audiophile myth about wav versus flac files is anyone's guess.
I go with there's money involved. By the way in a clear nod to one of
TAS's bigger advertisers, HDTracks, Harley does state that a wav file
obtained from flac file will sound the same as the original wav file
provided that the conversion from flac to wav takes place before the
file is played and that the wav file, not the flac file, is the one
that's played. Flat out stating that flac is inferior to wav would not
make the folks over at HDTracks very happy.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[jimbobvfr400]

Semantics maybe but FLAC is compressed as per my understanding of the
term, the difference being lossy vs lossless.

So is this Muppet saying that real time uncompressing of the FLAC ruins
the SQ and yet doing it faster than real time and saving the WAV is
somehow different. What an arse.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk




------------------------------------------------------------------------
jimbobvfr400's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56857
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by jimbobvfr400
Semantics maybe but FLAC is compressed as per my understanding of the
term, the difference being lossy vs lossless.
So is this Muppet saying that real time uncompressing of the FLAC ruins
the SQ and yet doing it faster than real time and saving the WAV is
somehow different. What an arse.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Exactly! I guess that makes him an arse clown :)



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[JJZolx]

This isn't new. It goes back years. There have been many people who
claim to hear a difference in sound quality between playing WAV and FLAC
files. Has nothing to do with the concept of lossy compression.

There are a number of theories as to why there may be a difference.
Could be noise caused by the CPU processing required to decode FLAC, or
it could have to do with the file structure of FLAC, which requires a
lot of memory manipulation to deal with frames and blocks and
reconstructing the stream into a simple stream of stereo PCM samples.

It's also been postulated that with a networked streaming player there
is very little difference, or even that FLAC can sound better. Streaming
WAV requires no CPU processing to decode the data, but it requires more
processing to handle the additional data coming in through the network
connection. The tradeoff may favor FLAC.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by JJZolx
This isn't new. It goes back years. There have been many people who
claim to hear a difference in sound quality between playing WAV and FLAC
files. Has nothing to do with the concept of lossy compression.
There are a number of theories as to why there may be a difference.
Could be noise caused by the CPU processing required to decode FLAC, or
it could have to do with the file structure of FLAC, which requires a
lot of memory manipulation to deal with frames and blocks and
reconstructing the stream into a simple stream of stereo PCM samples.
It's also been postulated that with a networked streaming player there
is very little difference, or even that FLAC can sound better. Streaming
WAV requires no CPU processing to decode the data, but it requires more
processing to deal with increased network traffic for the larger amount
of data that must be received. The tradeoff may favor FLAC.

This an old complaint and made some sense back when CPUs were much
slower and much less powerful. Today's computers and computers made
within the last 5 years are all quite capable of handling flac to wav
on-the-fly decompression without any loss in sound quality. Besides if
the high end is worried about this why doesn't one of the manufacturers
come up with a network player that decompresses the flac file to wav,
sends the wav file to a buffer and then the buffer feeds the sonically
pure wav file to the DAC.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[JJZolx]

Personally, I'm firmly in the middle on this debate. I don't have golden
ears, but I can believe it when someone tells me they hear something.

No offense, but I think the real clowns are people who tell others what
they can or cannot hear.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Mnyb]

I tend to think the debate is over when for example our friend archimago
( he is no alone in this ) can measure that the output from a DAC is
electrically identical :)


The question then becomes more of applied psycology and antropology ?
People are people and will " hear " difference when there is none.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Julf]

Post by JJZolx
Personally, I'm firmly in the middle on this debate. I don't have golden
ears, but I can believe it when someone tells me they hear something.

Of course they are hearing what they are claiming they are hearing -
they are not lying. The issue is that what they are hearing might not
correspond to differences in physical sound waves. Ever heard the term
"pycoacoustics" or "perceptual bias"?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
Of course they are hearing what they are claiming they are hearing -
they are not lying. The issue is that what they are hearing might not
correspond to differences in physical sound waves. Ever heard the term
"pycoacoustics" or "perceptual bias"?

I don't agree. They are flat out LYING since it can scientifically
proven that a wav file and a flac file made from that wav file will
sound EXACTLY the same on piece of playback equipment. And they are also
flat out LYING whenever they claim to hear difference between properly
functioning USB cables. Again it can be scientifically proven that a USB
cable has absolutely NO effect on the sound of a digital audio file. If
either of the editors at TAS or Stereophile do not know these basic
FACTS about digital audio then they should resign at once.

It is time that the public called out these lying clowns and labelled
them as the deceitful industry shill that they really are. One thing
they are not is honest, unbiased journalists.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[castalla]

Post by ralphpnj
deceitful industry shill that they really are.

That's free-market modern capitalism for you, then!



Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers
Logitech Radio
Logitech UE Smart Radio
Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite - Logitech Mini Boombox
speaker
Cubieboard + Fedora 18 + LMS 7.8 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100
bluetooth speaker
O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[HeadBanger]

I agree with Julf - I don't think they are lying; they genuinely do
believe this because of their own subconscious bias.
It's very hard to get someone to admit otherwise unless you manage to
get them to do a true blind ABX.



2 x Duet, 2 x Radio, Touch & Receiver with iPeng 7 & SqueezePlayer
served by HP N36 running FreeNAS/SlimNAS/LMS 7.8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
HeadBanger's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38024
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Mike Sargent]

Post by HeadBanger
It's very hard to get someone to admit otherwise unless you manage to
get them to do a true blind ABX.

Which they will avoid like the plague!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Sargent's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48115
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by HeadBanger
I agree with Julf - I don't think they are lying; they genuinely do
believe this because of their own subconscious bias.
It's very hard to get someone to admit otherwise unless you manage to
get them to do a true blind ABX.

Remember we are not talking about an audiophile spending their own money
in an effort to improve the sound of their system. We are talking
professional reviewers, who are supposed to be experts in audio, writing
reviews which audiophiles will then use to make their decisions on what
to spend their money on. So the reviewers actually have a twofold
"subconscious bias" - the normal audiophile bias plus a bias with
respect to the advertisers, as in they can't say anything which might
upset their advertisers.

Why I write what I write is simply because there is absolutely no
scientific reason, none, for Harley to write the nonsense that I quoted
in my initial post. The same goes for my other pet peeve - digital audio
cables, be they coax or USB. A properly functioning digital audio cable
has absolutely NO EFFECT on the sound of the playback of a digital audio
file. They only write these lies because that's what the high end cable
manufactures, one of their main advertisers, want them to write.

To put it another way, I can go around saying and BELIEVING that 2+2=5
but that doesn't make it so. So sure the clowns at the high end audio
magazines can write whatever nonsense they want but when they write
something that is just not true they should be called out on it,
something which I love to do :)

Post by HeadBanger
Which they will avoid like the plague!

Absolutely 100% true!!!



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[darrenyeats]

Post by JJZolx
Personally, I'm firmly in the middle on this debate. I don't have golden
ears, but I can believe it when someone tells me they hear something.
No offense, but I think the real clowns are people who tell others what
they can or cannot hear.

Agreed.

Post by JJZolx
Why I write what I write is simply because there is absolutely no
scientific reason, none, for Harley to write the nonsense that I quoted
in my initial post. The same goes for my other pet peeve - digital audio
cables, be they coax or USB. A properly functioning digital audio cable
has absolutely NO EFFECT on the sound of the playback of a digital audio
file. They only write these lies because that's what the high end cable
manufactures, one of their main advertisers, want them to write.

Ralph, "put down the sceptre"!
http://movie-sounds.org/fantasy-films-sound-bites/the-avengers-2012/put-down-the-sceptre

Chill dude, he-he. Check out the results especially for 24/96 here
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-logitech-touch-as-transport.html

If you use digital volume control, the signal could easily move 30db
toward the small differences shown in the test, making them less small
in practice. And practice is the only thing worth talking about.

Now, I get it that the coax cable was unshielded and not properly
terminated. But it does demonstrate there exists a physical mechanism
for digital cables to pass data correctly yet measure differently. Hence
"absolutely NO EFFECT" is actually incorrect, as stated.

A year ago, suggesting such a thing would have made me a laughing-stock
anti-science person.

Today, I have a defense - a test Archimago has conducted.

Has physics changed in a year? Think about it. What will next year
bring?



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by darrenyeats
Agreed.
Ralph, "put down the sceptre"!
http://movie-sounds.org/fantasy-films-sound-bites/the-avengers-2012/put-down-the-sceptre
Chill dude, he-he. Check out the results especially for 24/96 here
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02/measurements-logitech-touch-as-transport.html
If you use digital volume control, the signal could easily move 30db
toward the small differences shown in the test, making them less small
in practice. And practice is the only thing worth talking about.
Now, I get it that the coax cable was unshielded and not properly
terminated. But it does demonstrate there exists a physical mechanism
for digital cables to pass data correctly yet generate different
measurements in an audio system in which they are used. Hence
"absolutely NO EFFECT" is technically incorrect, as stated without
qualification.
A year ago, suggesting such a thing would have made me a laughing-stock
and "anti-science" person.
Today, I have a defense - a test Archimago has conducted.
Has physics changed in a year? No just the evidence collected.
That's the thing with science as evidence-based reasoning, the body of
evidence expands, whereas "science" as in "being told facts" is more
certain, simpler and more comforting.

I stated "A properly functioning digital audio cable" and you stated
"the coax cable was unshielded and not properly terminated" and thus not
properly functioning, so therefore I stand by my "absolutely NO EFFECT"
statement. As you say, "practice is the only thing worth talking about"
and I would hope that the clowns, oops, sceptreless Ralph means, the
fine writers and editors at the high end audio magazines at least
practice proper system setup and have properly functioning digital audio
cables regardless of their price.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[darrenyeats]

Ralph, the test demonstrates a difference in performance given the
particular gear, cables and test analyzer used.

Since a mechanism for impact on an audio system has been demonstrated to
exist, it is not unreasonable to suggest different gear or more accurate
test equipment could demonstrate other differences even between well
constructed cables.

Of course, there is no evidence this is so, yet. But the notion is not
at odds with the evidence unearthed presently.

My point stands, absolute statements should be toned down a bit.



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by darrenyeats
Ralph, the test demonstrates a difference in performance given the
particular gear, cables and test analyzer used.
Since a mechanism for impact on an audio system has been demonstrated to
exist, it is not unreasonable to suggest different gear or more accurate
test equipment could demonstrate other differences even between well
constructed cables.
Of course, there is no evidence this is so, yet. But the notion is not
at odds with the evidence unearthed presently.
My point stands, absolute statements should be toned down a bit.

Okay you have a point. So can I rephrase my statement to something along
the lines of "no measurable effect but one may still claim to hear a
difference since it is a free country and you're free to dup (oops there
I go again, sorry). Let's just go with "publish whatever you want" since
no one can absolutely prove you wrong, as in prove that you didn't hear
a difference.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[castalla]

You can measure as much as you want, gold-plate as much as you can
afford, etc. .... the end result depends on the psychophysiological
characteristics of your auditory apparatus - what we doctors call your
'lugs'. At current medical fees you could easily spend a banker's bonus
on trying to achieve an optimum match - of course the whole shebang
would be subject to a 12 month review at cost.

It's a fool's errand - stiil, it also redistributes wealth to some
degree.



Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers
Logitech Radio
Logitech UE Smart Radio
Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite - Logitech Mini Boombox
speaker
Cubieboard + Fedora 18 + LMS 7.8 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100
bluetooth speaker
O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Mnyb]

The point is that it still does not cost more than a small fraction of
those high end $$$ to make a properly functioning cable so they are
still shilling bunk :)

cables are an interesting case as for analog signal cables where can
measure small differences but not hear them ( because the diff is beond
our treashold to hear stuff ) unless again it's badly done . And a good
cable still does not cost a fortune .

So even if you can measure a small difference it does not invalidate the
piont .

The anti science is that they is usually claiming magical properties or
in best case second rate effects to make a difference .
Example that different metals sounds profoundly different ? That's
alchemy . A tru second rate effect is skin effect which is no problem at
audio frequencies , but it's there and can be measured :P

Add some hype oxygen free long crystal bla bla , gues what that's how
they make any cable copper !

Noticeable exception I've seen cheap Chinese 3 phase power cabling in my
work insulation like taffy the " metal " was yellow orange must be from
melting recycled copper with other scrap metal , it emitted smoke and
smelled funny in use :)

You can make a audiable diff with a speaker cables make it to thin and
to long to low impedance speaker with a unruly impedance plot and it
actually does something , but it can again be fixed without audiophile
$$$$ .

You can also find countless of strange $$$$$ cables that actually are
worse than even the cheapest of cables , made with strange materials and
physical properties that do make for a proper function , unsoiled cables
wrong geometry ! Carbon fibre instead of copper ? So in the real world a
typical audiophile cable is just as likly to be worse than a free cable
you get with a DVD player it can also be slightly better .
You just don't know as they are not guided by any scientific principle
whe designing them , they mighty have an OCD with " vibrations " or
something and " fixed " that .

Or actually make stuff up with jargon and surprise provide a cable that
" solves " the problem, and then manufacture in china ,make the cable
look like jewelry mark up the price at least 2000 -3000 % if not more
and make profit .

There is a proper cable business , but it's rarely represented by any
brand you can find in audiophile rags



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[netchord]

Post by darrenyeats
My point stands, absolute statements should be toned down a bit.

indeed.



--
4 TB Drobo-->FW 800-->mac mini-->Ethernet
Transporter--> Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax-->Meridian G61
G61--> Nordost Red Dawn-->Primare 30.3
Primare-->Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro
------------------------------------------------------------------------
netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Let's say that I'm in the audiophile accessories business and that I'm
selling 4" diameter blue plastic discs that one sticks on the walls of
listening room and I claim that these magic blue discs, when placed in
the proper place, will improvement the sound of one's audio system to a
very noticeable degree. The recommended number of discs is 6, the discs
are only sold in pairs and each pair costs $500 plus $25 shipping and
handling.

Now you've just won a lottery and have money to burn so you pick up 3
pairs of discs and place them on the walls of your listening room. But
instead of a vast improvement in the sound of your audio system you feel
the sound has not changed a all. You contact me in an effort to return
the worthless discs and get your $1,500 refunded (the $75 shipping fee
is nonrefundable). After several phone calls and emails I finally
respond to your request for a refund with a flat NO. My reasons are 1)
the discs were not placed EXACTLY where it was recommended for them to
be placed and 2) the sound of your system did in fact improve but your
tin ears are not capable of hearing the improvement so NO REFUND.

We have seen variations of the above nonsense many times in the wild and
wacky world of high end audio and these ripoff artists are rightly
called out as the con men that they really are. Why? Basically because
they are selling a product that cannot possibly have an effect on the
sound of an audio system since there is absolutely NO valid scientific
reason why their product can have an effect on the sound of an audio
system and because they are selling $1 discs for $250.

Now please explain to me how the above rip off differs in any
significant way from cable manufacturers selling $20 worth of USB cable
for $500 other than that their high priced cable has the blessing of
some arse clown from one of the high end audio magazines in the form of
a glowing review?

To me all the main elements are very similar:

1) A claim that cannot possibly be proven using known science.
2) Super high markup (usually many orders of magnitude).
3) The fall back position that when the promised improvement does not
materialize that the fault lies with the consumer and not with the
product.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Archimago]

Interesting discussion boys & girls.

Posted a little something on Audio PCs this week for the blog.

A few months ago, I think it was Mnyb who suggested I have a look at one
of the audiophiles' "cherished" products. Managed to track "one" down
:-). Look for some interesting pictures and results in the next week...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[SBGK]

or maybe you guys are wrong and the rest of the world is right. Is that
a possibility ?



Touch optimisations http://touchsgotrythm.blogspot.co.uk/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by SBGK
or maybe you guys are wrong and the rest of the world is right. Is that
a possibility ?

Not even remotely since there is no money involved for us guys but lots
of money involved for the clowns, as in the writers and editors of the
high end magazines. And remember money is the root of all evil.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[castalla]

Ahem - it's the love of money .... actually. As I said earlier it's a
sort of wealth distribution - there are better ones, but that's for
another argument.



Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers
Logitech Radio
Logitech UE Smart Radio
Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite - Logitech Mini Boombox
speaker
Cubieboard + Fedora 18 + LMS 7.8 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100
bluetooth speaker
O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Archimago]

Post by castalla
Ahem - it's the love of money .... actually. As I said earlier it's a
sort of wealth distribution - there are better ones, but that's for
another argument.

Yup... Love of money... The point I think still applies (perhaps even
more so for the snakeoil salespersons).



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Archimago]

Post by SBGK
or maybe you guys are wrong and the rest of the world is right. Is that
a possibility ?

Of course it's a possibility. Just not likely based on well understood
science and the fact that the science was used to create our electronic
gadgets and the lack of evidence for many of these beliefs.

I do however wonder what you mean by "the rest of the world is right".
Suppose I take a $500 3' length of AudioQuest Diamond USB cable and go
to the following places to talk about how this cable is the best
sounding interconnect I've heard:

1. Rocky Mountain Audio Fest - Most there would likely be OK if I said
this was the best USB cable known to man; the exhibitors might even show
me a few they think superior.

2. My non-audiophile coworkers, friends, wife (ie. most of the world) -
responses would range from indifference, cautious curiosity - "really!",
or perhaps some eye-rolling from those who have some concept/experience
with how digital transfers work - "really?". Most people will likely
have some inkling that I'm probably one prone to conspicuous consumption
for spending so much money on something they got for free with their
printer.

3. Steve Hoffman music forum, home theater (eg. AVS) forum - some
support but I'm sure a bit of disapproval. Nasty arguments not
uncommon.

4. AES (Audio Engineering Society) Meeting - I'm not likely to make many
friends among the professional organization if I keep talking about
expensive audiophile products like this unless I were handing them out
free.

5. Hydrogen Audio forum - I'll likely get banned or at the least asked
to produce ABX test results. Don't do it, man...

So... What do you think the "rest of the world" believes? I'd be
cautious suggesting the "rest of the world" sides with commonly accepted
audiophile beliefs.



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[andy_c]

Clowntime is -never- over in audio-tard land. BTW, -even if- the
ludicrous "rest of the world" claim were true, it's -argumentum ad
populum- anyway.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[darrenyeats]

$500 USB cable is foo, therefore all audiophile claims are foo?



Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

SB Touch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by darrenyeats
$500 USB cable is foo, therefore all audiophile claims are foo?

Darren I've stated this several times before but it bears repeating.

Not audiophile claims are foo however the audiophile claims that go
completely against known science and that cannot or refuse to be backed
up with clear and reproducible evidence are indeed very much FOO.

So when the audiophile press lauds a high priced loudspeaker because
much of the cost of the loudspeaker is spend on providing a substantial
internal bracing to ensure a very rigid cabinet there is very good
science which shows that a more rigid loudspeaker cabinet makes for a
better sounding unit.

But when the claim is made that on-the-fly flac decompression leads to
inferior sound that claim is just pure FOO.

My basic rule of thumb with respect to today's high end audio
publications is that the vast majority of anything written in these
magazines regarding digital audio is pure, 100% foo.

So for example while there may be some very, very subtle differences
between the sound of a well designed $2000 DAC, e.g. the Benchmark, and
some $15,000 esoteric DAC these differences are not "vast" nor are they
"night and day", as is all too often claimed in these magazines. NOt
quite foo since a subtle difference may exist but borderline foo since
said difference is so greatly exaggerated.

And finally, there is absolutely no difference in the sound of a well
made $20 USB cable and a $500 USB - NONE.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Archimago]

Post by darrenyeats
$500 USB cable is foo, therefore all audiophile claims are foo?

Surely, Darren, you know exactly the kind of foo-lishness we're talking
about...



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
This an old complaint and made some sense back when CPUs were much
slower and much less powerful. Today's computers and computers made
within the last 5 years are all quite capable of handling flac to wav
on-the-fly decompression without any loss in sound quality. Besides if
the high end is worried about this why doesn't one of the manufacturers
come up with a network player that decompresses the flac file to wav,
sends the wav file to a buffer and then the buffer feeds the sonically
pure wav file to the DAC.

No it did not make sense 20 years ago either, if the cpu fan do it your
fine.

TAS is completely dishonest and repaets these fairy tales because this
is what the audiophool culture wants to hear and creates the rigth
environment to place ads in.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[riffer]

Post by Mnyb
No it did not make sense 20 years ago either, if the cpu fan do it your
fine.
TAS is completely dishonest and repaets these fairy tales because this
is what the audiophool culture wants to hear and creates the rigth
environment to place ads in.

Interesting take. Could TAS be printing this nonsense only because that
is what their readership demands?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
riffer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13459
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Mnyb]

Post by riffer
Interesting take. Could TAS be printing this nonsense only because that
is what their readership demands?

Actually i think it a circular argument, its a feedback loop started in
the 70's :)
But i think some got cynical and see trough it all but still prints this
nonsense and manufacture these products...



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
No it did not make sense 20 years ago either, if the cpu fan do it your
fine.
TAS is completely dishonest and repaets these fairy tales because this
is what the audiophool culture wants to hear and creates the rigth
environment to place ads in.
Interesting take. Could TAS be printing this nonsense only because that
is what their readership demands?

In the publishing business the magazines serve the advertisers, not the
readership. Advertising works by spreading mis- and dis-information (or
lies and half truths). Mnyb is correct in that by completely
disregarding the science of digital audio TAS and the other audio
magazines create a world in which in USB cables can add jitter or in
which a two files with identical checksums are somehow different. Now if
you were trying to sell $500 USB cables and $2,000 power cords in which
magazine, the one in which hard science is respected or the one in which
hard science is ignored, would you rather advertise in?



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Mnyb]

Yrs tve advertksers usually pays more per magazine than you ( forany
magzine noy judt audio ) so it not hard to figure out.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Peiter]

Post by Mnyb
Yrs tve advertksers usually pays more per magazine than you ( forany
magzine noy judt audio ) so it not hard to figure out.

4givme but ur spelling seems a bit weird ;)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peiter's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=60334
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Mnyb]

Post by Peiter
4givme but ur spelling seems a bit weird ;)

;) ;) yes multiple languages on an iPhone does that to you !



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[bonze]

Interesting that they only ever have a problem with FLAC, do they ever
mention the "failings" of other lossless codecs?

Would they print similar articles for ALAC, for example?



LMS Version: 7.8
TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011
2x Touch, 3x SB3
------------------------------------------------------------------------
bonze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6150
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783

[Julf]

Post by bonze
Interesting that they only ever have a problem with FLAC, do they ever
mention the "failings" of other lossless codecs?
Would they print similar articles for ALAC, for example?

They can be sued by Apple. FLAC, inc. is less likely to sue.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=100783