Has the vinyl revival gone too far? - Interesting perspective...

[Archimago]

Interesting commentary of the whole vinyl phenomenon from someone with
some background from the looks of it:
http://www.avclub.com/articles/has-the-vinyl-revival-gone-too-far,93610/

Interesting comment about sound quality:
"Owning a decent turntable does not turn your ears into trembling
flowers, unable to bear the bitmapped harshness of digital. It began to
dawn on me—me, someone who had preached the sanctity of vinyl from
my record-store pulpit for so long—that I couldn’t really
tell the difference between a 7-inch and an MP3. Or rather, I could tell
there was a slight difference, but it wasn’t enough to justify the
huge portion of my income that I was spending on vinyl."

He didn't say what this "slight difference" was - maybe the lack of
surface noise :-). However, mon dieu! Sacrilege! How dare this man
compare vinyl with MP3!

IMO, good to see an article with a rational perspective.


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[Julf]

Post by Archimago
IMO, good to see an article with a rational perspective.

Agree. I was just reading the review of a pretty high-end pick-up
cartridge that the reviewer really praised - but the review actually
included measurements as well. Almost brickwall-like drop at 20 kHz, up
to 3% harmonic distortion...


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[Archimago]

Post by Julf
Agree. I was just reading the review of a pretty high-end pick-up
cartridge that the reviewer really praised - but the review actually
included measurements as well. Almost brickwall-like drop at 20 kHz, up
to 3% harmonic distortion...

Ouch!

Are those measurements on line? Would love to have a look...


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[Julf]

Post by Archimago
Are those measurements on line? Would love to have a look...

Unfortunately they seem to be subscriber-only. But the results seem to
be typical. Here are some other ones:

'hi-fi world: cartridge tests'
(http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/70-tests/103-cartridge-tests.html?showall=1).


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[darrenyeats]

Post by Julf
Unfortunately they seem to be subscriber-only. But the results seem to
'hi-fi world: cartridge tests'
(http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/70-tests/103-cartridge-tests.html?showall=1).

Measuring? Vinyl replay? Ooh, you don't want to be doing that!


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[Archimago]

Post by Julf
Unfortunately they seem to be subscriber-only. But the results seem to
'hi-fi world: cartridge tests'
(http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/70-tests/103-cartridge-tests.html?showall=1).

Thanks! Nice summary article. Since I was never really into vinyl, it's
been a long time since I've glanced at these kinds of measurements...
Those numbers make my cheap NOS DAC measurements look amazingly good :-)


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[Nando1970]

in my book vinyl is interesting just because it is often the only source
of superior mastering.
This said I only listen to digitized vinyl rips done by others
(sometimes using LPs I buy on purpose), and I would love to get access
to equivalent pure digital masters with no surface noise


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[darrenyeats]

Post by Nando1970
in my book vinyl is interesting just because it is often the only source
of superior mastering.

Good point ... any examples?
Darren


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[Archimago]

Post by darrenyeats
Good point ... any examples?
Darren

In terms of examples where the vinyl mastering clearly sounds better,
many of the recent pop / rock albums present reasonable examples:
fun. - Some Nights (CD DR6, vinyl DR10)
P!nk - The Truth About Love (CD DR6, vinyl DR10)
Depeche Mode - Delta Machine (CD DR6, vinyl DR~10)

Although the DR value isn't necessarily indicative of quality, the
correlation certainly seems to be there. DR10 isn't great but at least
somewhat reasonable.

Notice the similarity in values for each of these releases. Is DR10
perhaps close to the limit of "hot" that vinyl can give before we start
getting tracking errors and all the vinyl listeners start getting pissed
off?


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[Mnyb]

Post by Nando1970
in my book vinyl is interesting just because it is often the only source
of superior mastering.
This said I only listen to digitized vinyl rips done by others
(sometimes using LPs I buy on purpose), and I would love to get access
to equivalent pure digital masters with no surface noise

That and out of print stuff that is otherwise unavaible .

maybe the DJ culture needs it for novelty value .

it's an anachronism , the 2 first reasons are just because of dimwitted
record companies and not really a technical necessity .


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[mlsstl]

Post by Nando1970
in my book vinyl is interesting just because it is often the only source
of superior mastering.

I'll begin by confessing that I haven't joined the small wave of those
buying current vinyl releases, so the bulk of my LP experience is with
material released in the 1980s and before, but I'd question whether the
current vinyl releases are "superior", or just "different".

The LP has an interesting set of technical limitations which affect what
can be done. The needed RIAA curve has a 40 dB swing in the 20 Hz to 20
KHz frequency range. Both volume (which directly affects S/N ratio) and
bass are trade-offs against the time available per side. These have to
be carefully managed to keep the record playable for the average
turntable.

If vinyl has any "superiority", it may well be due to the technical
limitations keeping the engineer/producers from doing what they'd
otherwise be inclined to do.

I've got no problem with LPs, though I've digitized my collection. About
a third of my music library comes from the 2,000 LP and open reel
conversions that I've done over the past 10 years. Some of the LPs were
wonderful recordings that sound great. Others were not so good, and that
was due to the original recording, not a bad mastering or poor pressing.


Pretty much the same is true of the material from CD. Some of the
recordings are absolutely stunning, some are terrible, and a whole bunch
are mediocre. However, I'd hazard a guess that most recordings sound
pretty much like the artists and producers want them to sound.
Unfortunately, there are some very fashionable trends in the music
industry that aren't particularly musical. This is especially true for
pop/rock material.


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[Mnyb]

Post by mlsstl
If vinyl has any "superiority", it may well be due to the technical
limitations keeping the engineer/producers from doing what they'd
otherwise be inclined to do.

"may" it's absolutely the case you cant cut a loudness war master to
vinyl , so they funny enough have greater dynamic range despite thier
severy technical limitations .

it is silly :)


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
"may" it's absolutely the case you cant cut a loudness war master to
vinyl , so they funny enough have greater dynamic range despite thier
severy technical limitations .
it is silly :)

It may indeed be silly but apparently silly sells.


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[Mnyb]

Post by ralphpnj
It may indeed be silly but apparently silly sells.

Yeah ,but why not release the better master as another CD or a download
? No instead they make a vinyl ?

Are we there again , you can not sell a "lowly cd" or download to the
intended audience , it must be vinyl or possibly hirez :/
Heck even a 256kBps AAC iTunes version would be vastly superior to a
loudness war alternative and the vinyl .


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Mnyb
Yeah ,but why not release the better master as another CD or a download
? No instead they make a vinyl ?
Are we there again , you can not sell a "lowly cd" or download to the
intended audience , it must be vinyl or possibly hirez :/
Heck even a 256kBps AAC iTunes version would be vastly superior to a
loudness war alternative and the vinyl .

Don't you know that people will steal downloads! Never mind that as soon
as the CD is released someone rips it to mp3 or flac or wav or ape, etc.
and uploads it for other people to steal. But then why are we even
talking about this nonsense since we already know that the music
industry is run by a bunch of really, really ignorant people. Stupid is
as stupid does.


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[Mnyb]

They rip the vinyls too , to 24/96 :O

Next , in the future if you want to hear a song you go to a shop and
under surveillance by 3 record company exec you can listen to a song for
a fee , you be stripped and body searched and wearing a paper overall
and using thier headphones....


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[JJZolx]

This phenomenon isn't at all unique to vinyl collecting or high end
audio. You see the same thing in a thousand other hobbies.

When I was a kid, you went deer hunting with a shotgun and slugs, or an
old 30-30 lever action. Now, you have guys who own five custom made deer
rifles, a couple of elk rifles, antelope rifles, etc. Guys no longer
drive two hours to a cabin in the Pennsyvania woods that their family
has owned for generations - they fly to Montana and pay $5000 for a
guided elk hunt. And we're not talking about the moneyed rich. These are
the same blue collar workers, shoe salesmen and school teachers who
years ago wouldn't spend more than $5.00 on a box of ammo each fall.

Everything is over the top these days. To the point that many people no
longer want anything to do with all of the assholes involved with many
hobbies.


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[cliveb]

Post by Mnyb
"may" it's absolutely the case you cant cut a loudness war master to
vinyl , so they funny enough have greater dynamic range despite thier
severy technical limitations .

This isn't a universal truth. It is perfectly possible to cut a
hypercompressed master to vinyl - you just have to back off the levels
to be able to fit it on the side. This of course degrades the S/N ratio,
but since hypercompressed masters have little dynamic range, the loss of
S/N ratio isn't such a problem.

Although some vinyl is cut from a less compressed master than the CD,
there are also examples of recent vinyl releases having been cut from
the same master as the CD. So buying the vinyl certainly does NOT
guarantee that you'll get a less mangled master. There's a thread on
Hydrogen Audio that discusses this subject:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=98199


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[Mnyb]

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand this. On vinyl there should
still be the same linear length of the groove for the same length of
song, regardless of levels; does keeping levels high mean that the
groove, in effect, must be wider, reducing the the total groove length
for a side? Or am I just missing something obvious?
R.

Yes it's the width , hence the riaa curve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

Wonder how low the levels must be for some ultra compressed stuff ?

other limitations is that bass must practically be mono and ch
separation about 20-30dB in the midrange


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[Archimago]

Hey guys, was stroll the magazine racks this evening and looked at the
most recent (I think) The Absolute Sound. Essentially the last page
where Neil Gader interviews Mark Waldrep of AIX Records.

Waldrep clearly talks about vinyl as "standard definition" and mentions
the technical limitations as not being true high definition. Surprised
TAS would print this :-)


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[w3wilkes]

And before digital we had the "direct to disk". I have a Umbrella label
that I bought in 1977 that features the Toronto Chamber Orchestra -
Mozart. A wonderful recording that was as good as you could get back
then!
Loading Image....html


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[Mnyb]

Off topic :
Waldrep is a nice guy . I must had the longest standing back order in
history for the AIX Nicci Gilbert record , some difficulties prevented
the release for years ( maybe 5 ) but AIX eventually delivered , if you
believe the gossip on the internet ms Gilbert herself seems to be a
difficulty outside her obvious artistic talents ,but as a gentleman I
don't think mr Waldrep will tell .

I'm patently alergic to "audiophile records" nowadays but some of AIX
output is musically relevant , it may not be mainstream and genres vary
but interesting anyway a pity that the release rate is slooow .

O I had an umbrella LP , Prokofiev something it was quite nice but not
extra ordinary , but that's probaly expected there is only one take :o
cool anyway to hear unedited playing ,some nerve .


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[Archimago]

Related to this?
'Musical Provenance: Tracking the Tracks, by Mark Waldrep'
(http://www.audiostream.com/content/musical-provenance-tracking-tracks-mark-waldrep)?

Nice. Seems like a good "no nonsense" guy.


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[Julf]

does keeping levels high mean that the groove, in effect, must be wider,
reducing the the total groove length for a side?

Yes. If you have a lot of high-amplitude stuff, the inter-groove gap has
to be increased. If you look at the grooves on a LP, you can actually
tell the loud parts from the quiet parts.


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[TimT]

Post by Julf
Yes. If you have a lot of high-amplitude stuff, the inter-groove gap has
to be increased. If you look at the grooves on a LP, you can actually
tell the loud parts from the quiet parts.

Those of us old enough will recall the 1812 Overture on a Telarc LP, one
of the first digital recordings. The company claimed that most
turntables couldn't handle the cannon shots that ended the piece. A
salesman at Nicholson's Stereo in Nashville auditioned the record for
me. You could clearly see the wide grooves on the LP.


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[RonM]

Post by TimT
Those of us old enough will recall the 1812 Overture on a Telarc LP, one
of the first digital recordings. The company claimed that most
turntables couldn't handle the cannon shots that ended the piece. A
salesman at Nicholson's Stereo in Nashville auditioned the record for
me. You could clearly see the wide grooves on the LP.

My Sony home theatre receiver has a similar problem.

It's a relatively inexpensive device (and a Sony, 'nuff said) that
serves when I watch movies or (sometimes) listen to music away from the
dearly beloved. We were watching the movie Master and Commander (I'm a
Patrick O'Brian junky, and the movie is better than I expected it to
be). It's a movie about the British navy in the early 19th Century,
during the Napoleonic wars. Lots of naval battles with cannons.

DR is very high on this recording. Everytime the cannons would fire,
the receiver's auto-protect mechanism got invoked and it shut down.
Very annoying, but quite funny. And I didn't even have it turned up
loud.

R.


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[RonM]

Post by cliveb
This isn't a universal truth. It is perfectly possible to cut a
hypercompressed master to vinyl - you just have to back off the levels
to be able to fit it on the side. This of course degrades the S/N ratio,
but since hypercompressed masters have little dynamic range, the loss of
S/N ratio isn't such a problem.[/url]

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand this. On vinyl there should
still be the same linear length of the groove for the same length of
song, regardless of levels; does keeping levels high mean that the
groove, in effect, must be wider, reducing the the total groove length
for a side? Or am I just missing something obvious?

R.


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[ralphpnj]

Post by Archimago
Interesting commentary of the whole vinyl phenomenon from someone with
http://www.avclub.com/articles/has-the-vinyl-revival-gone-too-far,93610/
"Owning a decent turntable does not turn your ears into trembling
flowers, unable to bear the bitmapped harshness of digital. It began to
dawn on me—me, someone who had preached the sanctity of vinyl from my
record-store pulpit for so long—that I couldn’t really tell the
difference between a 7-inch and an MP3. Or rather, I could tell there
was a slight difference, but it wasn’t enough to justify the huge
portion of my income that I was spending on vinyl."
He didn't say what this "slight difference" was - maybe the lack of
surface noise :-). However, mon dieu! Sacrilege! How dare this man
compare vinyl with MP3!
IMO, good to see an article with a rational perspective.

Nice article, well thought out and well written. Thanks for the link.

I've said this before and it bares repeating in this context. I have a
very nice vinyl playback set up and around 2,000 LPs. Many times when
I'm listening to vinyl I often wonder why so many people are so
anti-vinyl because vinyl sounds very good. Sure there is surface noise
to deal with, the ritual involved in playing (cleaning, clamping, etc.)
and having to flip the damn thing every 20 minutes plus it is in no way
portable but still vinyl can and does sound very nice. But like Mr.
Heller I also have to admit that vinyl doesn't sound all that much
better than digital, just slightly different. All told, streaming audio
beats vinyl, CD, DVD-Audio and SACD playback because streaming audio can
sound just as good as any of the others and is a whole lot more (orders
of magnitude more) convenient.


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