Enormous file sizes

[RonM]

I recently purchased and downloaded an album by Medeski, Schofield,
Martin and Wood. Their website required me to install a Java update to
download, first time I've seen a downloader requiring Java in a good
long time.

It was late, I left it downloading when I went to bed. Just as well.

The filesizes are enormous relative to the track length. MP3tag reports
that the flac tracks are only 44.1khz, but the Bitrate hovers around
5000 kB/s! I don't know what the bit depth is, but I'm assuming 24.

A 5:46 track is 243MB.

I tried converting this track to 320 mp3 with dBpoweramp, which worked
fine -- but the filesize is still over 115MB.

These figures are way out of line, and I can't figure them out. The
files play fine.

Suggestions as to what is going on?

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[JJZolx]

Post by RonM
The filesizes are enormous relative to the track length. MP3tag reports
that the flac tracks are only 44.1khz, but the Bitrate hovers around
5000 kB/s! I don't know what the bit depth is, but I'm assuming 24.

Try this at a command prompt on one of the files:

metaflac --list --block-type=STREAMINFO "07 Hanuman.flac"

You should see something like this, which will show both the sample rate
and bit depth:


Code:
--------------------

L:\Flac\Medeski Scofield Martin & Wood\Out Louder>metaflac --list --block-type=STREAMINFO "07 Hanuman.flac"
METADATA block #0
type: 0 (STREAMINFO)
is last: false
length: 34
minimum blocksize: 4096 samples
maximum blocksize: 4096 samples
minimum framesize: 16 bytes
maximum framesize: 13181 bytes
sample_rate: 44100 Hz
channels: 2
bits-per-sample: 16
total samples: 16964976
MD5 signature: f972ab14f06aae810c3e03ec389c489f

--------------------


* If the FLAC executable folder isn't in your PATH environment variable,
you may need to use the full path of the metaflac executable. For
example:

"C:\Progam Files (x86)\FLAC\metaflac" ...


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[JJZolx]

Looking at my last post, something just occurred to me: Could these be
multi-channel files? Four, five or six channels or whatever "surround
sound" is these days?


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[probedb]

Drop them into fb2k or something similar and have a look. I hadn't
noticed mp3tag even showing sample rate etc but I use it for tagging.

As jj says, multi-channel is a good call, otherwise I'd say they're
24/96 files.



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
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[garym]

I just looked at some of the few hires FLAC files I have (two channel,
24/96). A 5:18 minute song is 122,525kbps.



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* several Touch, Radio, SB3
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[Mnyb]

maybe convert them to 16744.1 2ch before making mp3 of them ? is there
such a thing as a 24bit mp3 ?

24/192 6ch would be very big :)

Another thing to notice is that 24bit does not compress very well. 144dB
sn ratio lets assume a good recording with about 90dB sn/ratio (would
expect something from the 70's to be more like 70dB ) .
That would leave 50-60 dB of the signal being random noise . The whole
idea behind many lossles compression algorithms is that its not random
information ! So expect not so good compression ratios .



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[dafiend]

is there such a thing as a 24bit mp3 ?

No. There's also no such thing as 16 bit MP3. Internally, MP3s use
32-bit float.

With a WAV, the bit depth tells you something about the number of values
a sample in the time domain can take. If understand correctly, MP3s
store audio as samples in the frequency domain. And these samples are
floats. I'm no expert, but I don't think bit depth is such a useful
concept when talking about MP3s.


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[probedb]

Post by dafiend
No. There's also no such thing as 16 bit MP3. Internally, MP3s use
32-bit float.
With a WAV, the bit depth tells you something about the number of values
a sample in the time domain can take. If understand correctly, MP3s
store audio as samples in the frequency domain. And these samples are
floats. I'm no expert, but I don't think bit depth is such a useful
concept when talking about MP3s.

You're right they're 32-bit float so nope, they have no bit depth in the
sense that PCM data does :)



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
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[JJZolx]

Post by probedb
You're right they're 32-bit float so nope, they have no bit depth in the
sense that PCM data does :)

Mp3s also have a maximum sampling rate of 48 kHz, so a hi-res FLAC
wouldn't explain the large size of the transcoded Mp3.

For example, I have a 24/96 version of Clapton's -Slow Hand-, and the
Lame Mp3 transcoding of it is almost identical in size to the Mp3
transcoding of the standard 16/44.1 CD.


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[Julf]

Post by JJZolx
For example, I have a 24/96 version of Clapton's -Slow Hand-, and the
Lame Mp3 transcoding of it is almost identical in size to the Mp3
transcoding of the standard 16/44.1 CD.

Which makes sense, as mp3 is based on what the human ear can hear...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[RonM]

I'll check things tonight, but the native sampling is 44.1, as received
by me. I had assumed higher before looking and used dBp to resample to
44.1 (thinking I had 192 or 96). The "resampled" filesize was
essentially the same, no surprise.

There is no mention on the MMW website suggesting that the files are
multi-channel, which you'd think they'd gloat about if so.

R.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[jfo]

Ron,
I went to the MMW site to download the new CD but it only shows as
available in MP3. Where did you find it in 16/44.1?

http://medeskimartinandwood.shop.musictoday.com/Product.aspx?cp=124_13148&pc=MWDD15


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[RonM]

Ron,
I went to the site to download the new MSMW CD but it only shows as
available in MP3. Where did you find it in 16/44.1?
http://medeskimartinandwood.shop.musictoday.com/Product.aspx?cp=124_13148&pc=MWDD15
Or were you referring to the MMW CD "20"

Yes, very strange. It had a flac version there when I downloaded. I
called customer service, who referred me to the download manager, to
whom I sent an e-mail. Customer service thought it was strange there
wasn't a flac option, since they had a record of me having received the
flac.

My assumption is that there was something awry with the flac files, and
they pulled them to fix before reposting, but I haven't heard back from
the downloads manager.

Congruent with my experience with the files.

r.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[RonM]

Main problem turned out to be the 6000 x 6000 image embedded in each
file. When stripped it left corrupted metadata, meaning I couldn't
reconvert to flac to recover the space. Or convert to any other
format.

Although the store was useless, the artist site responded to my query
with a link to wav files, which I downloaded, converted to flac and to
which I added metadata. All is well.



LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC2)
Transporter (ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm
speakers
Duet (wifi) - home theatre 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
Boom 1 (wifi) - workspace
Boom 2 (wifi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
Radio (wifi) - home office
Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment
UE Radio - awaiting deployment
Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theatre, all others),
Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), Music2Touch (BB Playbook)
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[probedb]

Post by RonM
Main problem turned out to be the 6000 x 6000 image embedded in each
file. When stripped it left corrupted metadata, meaning I couldn't
reconvert to flac to recover the space. Or convert to any other
format.
Although the store was useless, the artist site responded to my query
with a link to wav files, which I downloaded, converted to flac and to
which I added metadata. All is well.

Holy poop! Why would anyone embed an image that large!?!?



'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb)
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[Julf]

Post by probedb
Holy poop! Why would anyone embed an image that large!?!?

Because bigger is better, just like with sample rate? :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[dafiend]

Post by Julf
Because bigger is better, just like with sample rate? :)

I think you meant ;) not :)


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[Julf]

Post by dafiend
I think you meant ;) not :)

Absolutely. But I did turn on the irony bit the http stream...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
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[garym]

Post by Julf
Absolutely. But I did turn on the irony bit the http stream...

It confused me too. But I only have a 16/44.1 email stream. I'm sure I
lose a lot of intended meaning with my non hi-res email.



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* several Touch, Radio, SB3
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[ralphpnj]

Post by Julf
Absolutely. But I did turn on the irony bit the http stream...
It confused me too. But I only have a 16/44.1 email stream. I'm sure I
lose a lot of intended meaning with my non hi-res email.

I strongly suggest that both of you switch to the new Pono email system
which fully supports all high resolution email formats. There are also
plans to introduce the new Pono web browser which will offer support for
high resolution forum posts (provided of course that the forum server is
high resolution capable).

However please note the following Pono restrictions:

1) neither the Pono email or browser will be available on any Apple
idevices.

2) all cabling, both internal and external, must be upgraded in order to
insure full high resolution capability.

3) inclusion of any information within any email or web site or posting
which is in violation of any copyright law (whether federal, state or
foreign) will be deleted and your account will be terminated.



Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. &
sub
Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub
Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1
& Energy sub
Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0
Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar
Garage: SB3-JVC compact system
Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso
Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos
'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/)
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[Archimago]

I signed up for that Pono E-mail.

Unfortunately, they won't be able to set up my account until after
December. My wife was so disappointed because she wanted me to have it
by Christmas!

No problem though, Mr. Young is sending me a super special numbered
physically signed piece of paper to put under the Christmas tree!

I'm so happy; he's just the best! I think I'm going to buy his new book
for everyone because "Waging Heavy Peace" was just soooo insightful.

Recent video from Oct 10:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102084076



Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective'
audiophile blog.
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[Mnyb]

Post by probedb
Holy poop! Why would anyone embed an image that large!?!?

It can be worse it can be a *.BMP or *.png instead of *.jpg , then LMS
would certainly croak on scanning it on some platforms



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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